Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Doodski]

Yes.
RME is definitely cleaner but not night and day.

For information , I use a Wireworld Electra (non Silver) power cord on Rega.
This upgrade made a big difference vs, initial stock cable

Ima be straight up and to the point. Been a rough day... LoL. You have been hoodwinked to think an AC power cord will improve the sound. If the cable conductor can handle the current then it is good. No fancy stuff required. A $12 hospital grade extra heavy duty cable is way more than you need. In metrology which is the calibration of metering gear that goes down to metering parts per million or parts per billion they use standard AC power cords because fancy stuff is rubbish snake oil.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I didn't say that. I said there's a good possibility that due to varying electrical parts Op-amps etc... that they have differences between them. Some DAC's may be colored and might not measure equally.

Any and all characteristics of electronic circuits used in audio either fall below the threshold of human hearing or above the threshold of human hearing. Differences below the threshold of human hearing are, ipso facto, not worth pursuing. Humans cannot tell that they exist.

If a controlled double-blind test shows that there is an audible difference (such as "color"), then tests and measurements of the electronic circuit will show the root cause. Electronic measurements are orders of magnitude more accurate and sensitive than the hearing of any human, even someone highly-trained and listening critically under ideal conditions.

Jim

 

[SIY]

Could you explain this "limitation" in the top octave that makes hearing differences in bass "vastly unlikely"

The filtering and any small-signal circuit limitations. Bass is trivially slow and easy.

 

[Seta Seta Pop]

You have disclosed the secret truth. I have dispatched the Audio Police to your location, they will be taking you to the Guantanamo Listening Room...

They will be welcome in Madrid

 

[AudioSceptic]

Since you likely paid $200-$300 for that Wireworld power cord there is no way you will ever accept that power cords make no difference.

I know you understand that electric power is distributed through many miles of high voltage power lines, it’s voltage is dropped by multiple transformers, sent to your breaker box, then conducted by the Romex cable in your house wiring. How does the last 3’ of your Wireworld power cable ‘improve’ or change that electrical current that powers your DAC?

What factor am I missing here?

Indeed, and even if there were a difference*, how great would it have to be to alter the output of a DAC?

Edit: *Voltage, current, phase?

 

[AudioSceptic]

I didn't say that. I said there's a good possibility that due to varying electrical parts Op-amps etc... that they have differences between them. Some DAC's may be colored and might not measure equally.


We agree!

When audio equipment has audible colouration, the reason always shows in measurements, mostly as FR variations. Are you claiming that colouration can be present and not show in measurements?

 

[Tinker]

When audio equipment has audible colouration, the reason always shows in measurements, mostly as FR variations. Are you claiming that colouration can be present and not show in measurements?

No. I never suggested that.

 

[Demmers]

So a Youtube review of the FiiO K-11 R2R DAC/Amp just caught my eye, and within the first couple of sentences, i'm saying to myself "what's an R2R DAC?!"
I've already just briefly researched on them, so now I understand their topology and differences, but after being in this hobby for about the last five years, i'm surprised i've never heard of them before. Somewhere said R2R is like the equivalent of tube amps but for DACS, so I thought that's probably why I haven't heard of them (higher distortion), but then I read this from https://sw1xad.co.uk/technology_post/delta-sigma-vs-non-oversampling-r2r-dac-designs/
"In the right design, a great R2R DAC in non-oversampling mode presents music in way more deeper, more organic and natural way than any DS type of DAC. The analogy is akin to comparison of pictures taken with a) a camera equipped with proper optical lens (non-oversampling R2R DAC) and b) with a camera taken with a digital zoom and a lot of DSP post-processing, done by the software and hardware of a camera (DS DAC). Pictures taken with a) have sense of depth, are more natural in their textures and are smoother in their transients. There is no post-processing and all original data is presented more or less as captured. Pictures taken with b) are flatter, textures are more synthetic and are edgier in the transients as post-processing was applied to interpolate the missing data and all results heavily depends on post-processing algorithm chosen."
I know DAC's shouldn't have a "sound" in the first place, but after reading that, i'm led to believe that DS DAC's are technically inferior, but all the best DAC's (if not most) reviewed here are non-DS right, like my well-measured Topping D10s? I've searched on here to see if Amirm has reviewed an R2R DAC but don't see one? What am I missing?!

 

[Jimbob54]

I know DAC's shouldn't have a "sound" in the first place, but after reading that, i'm led to believe that DS DAC's are technically inferior, but all the best DAC's (if not most) reviewed here are non-DS right, like my well-measured Topping D10s? I've searched on here to see if Amirm has reviewed an R2R DAC but don't see one? What am I missing?!

Most of the DACs measured here (including most of the best measuring) are DS- Im moving this thread elsewhere as it will very quickly head into territory familiar to regulars.

 

[Demmers]

Most of the DACs measured here (including most of the best measuring) are DS- Im moving this thread elsewhere as it will very quickly head into territory familiar to regulars.

Thanks Jimbob, and I meant to say DS, not non, my brain was all confused at that point lol!

 

[Geert]

I've searched on here to see if Amirm has reviewed an R2R DAC but don't see one?

He did. One example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ladder-schumann-r2r-dac-review.40084/

Edit: second example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/denafrips-ares-ii-usb-r2r-dac-review.11166/

 

[SIY]

"In the right design, a great R2R DAC in non-oversampling mode presents music in way more deeper, more organic and natural way than any DS type of DAC. The analogy is akin to comparison of pictures taken with a) a camera equipped with proper optical lens (non-oversampling R2R DAC) and b) with a camera taken with a digital zoom and a lot of DSP post-processing, done by the software and hardware of a camera (DS DAC). Pictures taken with a) have sense of depth, are more natural in their textures and are smoother in their transients. There is no post-processing and all original data is presented more or less as captured. Pictures taken with b) are flatter, textures are more synthetic and are edgier in the transients as post-processing was applied to interpolate the missing data and all results heavily depends on post-processing algorithm chosen."

What you got there is a steaming pile of recycled bullshit designed to enstupidate the audience enough that money may be extracted. R2R can make a perfectly fine DAC (but doesn't, usually), but it is far harder, more expensive, and in no way superior to more modern, less expensive, and more stable methods. That said, although they're generally technically inferior to modern engineered DACs, they're still good enough that you won't hear any of the flaws.

 

[Jimbob54]

He did. One example https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ladder-schumann-r2r-dac-review.40084/

Done a few

SMSL VMV D3 Review (R2R DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL VMV D3 R2R DAC. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $3,499. Being part of the "high-end" VMV division, it comes in the milled enclosure and separate power supply section of that design path. As such, it is quite heavy and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Mhdt Labs Pagoda Review (R2R Tube DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Mhdt Labs Pagoda R2R DAC with tube buffer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs (I think) US $1,570 with standard tube. While I am not a fan of the plexiglass front, the rest of the unit looks good: Stock tube is a US made tube. I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denafrips ARES II USB R2R DAC Review

This is a review and measurements of the Denafrips ARES II USB DSD DAC based on R2R architecture. It is on kind loan from a member. I think it costs US $680 so not too high for a custom DAC. The overall look of the ARES II is rather plain: The LED indicators are quite tiny so standing top...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon DA-500 Vintage R2R DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the vintage (?) Denon DA-500 DAC. It was kindly purchased by a member on the used market and drop shipped to me. Interest was to find historic products with something cool about them. In this case, it is the "alpha" processing in the DA-500 which...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Massdrop Airist R2R DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Airist R2R DAC. It is on kind loan from a member a while back who has been patiently waiting for its review. The Airist R2R costs US $350. Drop's website says 931 are sold so it seems like a popular DAC. The Airist DAC employs the attractive...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Jimbob54]

What you got there is a steaming pile of recycled bullshit designed to enstupidate the audience enough that money may be extracted. R2R can make a perfectly fine DAC (but doesn't, usually), but it is far harder, more expensive, and in no way superior to more modern, less expensive, and more stable methods. That said, although they're generally technically inferior to modern engineered DACs, they're still good enough that you won't hear any of the flaws.

When DACs go bad!

 

[DSJR]

Yes.
RME is definitely cleaner but not night and day.

For information , I use a Wireworld Electra (non Silver) power cord on Rega.
This upgrade made a big difference vs, initial stock cable

A few conclusions here - your brain is constructing a reason to use such a cable, the previous cable was poorly designed and made and - shock horror - the Rega dac isn't as well designed as Rega and many users think/thought it is or was (the figures do tell a mediocre story sadly).

 

[DSJR]

Indeed, and even if there were a difference*, how great would it have to be to alter the output of a DAC?

Edit: *Voltage, current, phase?

Maybe some rf filtering (I'm guessing)?

 

[antcollinet]

Yes.
RME is definitely cleaner but not night and day.

For information , I use a Wireworld Electra (non Silver) power cord on Rega.
This upgrade made a big difference vs, initial stock cable

You are hearing things that are not in the music reaching your ears.

 

[Tinker]

@Demmers

The FiiO K-11 is not an expensive financial risk. If you like it... get it!! Try it. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at just how good it sounds. I'd bet it punches well above it's price point. If not... send it back.

Good luck! Be happy.

 

[SIY]

The FiiO K-11 is not an expensive financial risk.

Excellent DACs which will be transparent in 99% of cases are as cheap as $10. These days, it's trivial to do at ridiculously low prices. So best thing is to buy something whose look and feel are appealing and has the features you need. No need (except at the very cheapest and very most expensive) to worry about whether they "sound good."

 

[IPunchCholla]

I wonder how much time, effort, and energy could be saved if we required posters to take and post in their signature their ability to hear frequencies, distortion, noise, and volume?

Looking at the bad amp above, I would be maybe barely able to hear the distortion station in pure sine waves, in a very quiet environment, on a good tinnitus day. No way I’d hear it in music. Others could, though.

While we have soft and hard limits to audibility pretty well documented, nothing made the issues clearer than knowing my own audible threshold for some distortion and noise.