Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[voodooless]

What happens if we let Maria out of her black and white room into the real world, where there are many different colors, will she learn something new, will she get a new experience about color?

Will she ever be able to see ultraviolet or infrared? Can anyone else?

 

[Purité Audio]

Stating the obvious but if you want to compare anything rigorously you need two identical units one stock one ‘improved’, compare level matched and unsighted.
Keith

 

[SIY]

I specifically registered on the forum because I want to write in this topic because I have a strong argument in favor of people who hear the difference in the sound of different operational amplifiers.
I think this may affect the attitude of some people towards other dimensions of sound.

So, read about the "Mary's Room" experiment — this is my main argument.

This is a thought experiment, the essence of which is as follows:
Imagine a researcher of color, Maria. Maria has studied the neurophysiology of color all her life, but all the time she was in a black-and-white room, where absolutely everything is black and white, even her monitor is black and white and, let's imagine that she herself is also colorless. At the same time, Maria has studied color so well that she knows all the information about color that can be obtained. She knows the wavelengths of all colors, knows which neurons transmit the signal from the retina to the brain and what is happening at this time in the brain itself. She sees all the graphs of color measurements, she has all the data about each color, but she has never seen the colors themselves.
What happens if we let Maria out of her black and white room into the real world, where there are many different colors, will she learn something new, will she get a new experience about color?

My answer is definitely yes.

This experiment shows that even with the fullness of the measured information, graphs and figures, real experience can provide additional information that graphs and figures will not show.

By analogy, I think the same situation happens with sound – even the most accurate measurements of frequency response, etc. do not show the real picture.

In addition, there is a second strong argument already from the field of biology:
Any professional biologist and/or doctor specializing in hearing will confirm to you that people not only hear different frequency ranges, but they hear and perceive the frequencies themselves in different ways.
As you know, we have a snail responsible for the perception of frequencies and in this snail we may have a different number of receptors, for example (conditionally) I may have 100 receptors for the perception of 90Hz, and you have 300 receptors and you will perceive this frequency completely differently than me. This is verifiable and has been proven more than once.
Just as people with a large number of taste and olfactory receptors feel the taste of food thinner and richer.

Thus, I believe that we perceive sound in different ways and some seemingly insignificant sound nuances may be very noticeable to certain people (and for other people, accordingly, other sound nuances will be noticeable).


In conclusion, I want to say that for a long time I did not believe in different OP sounds, but I clearly heard different sound of amplifiers and DAC's, I know that they really have different frequency response.
Recently, I replaced my Yamaha AX-10 with Aiyima A07 and began to read this forum, the opinions of different users, it turned out that the manufacturer Aiyima recommends changing the OP NE5532 to LM4562 in them (they even have video instructions on how to do this on their channel).
I decided to try it.
For me, the difference between NE5532 and LM4562 turned out to be very noticeable.
NE5532 - sounds more open, the midrange is brighter, the vocals sound closer.
LM4562 - gives more low frequencies, the bass guitars sound stunningly natural, much more details are heard, the sound becomes elastic, but the vocals move a little into the background.
For several days I conducted tests by changing the chips in my amplifier and DAC's – I heard this difference every time, including on blind tests.
My wife also hears this difference.
And now the problem for me is that I really like the naturalness of the bass and the overall detail of the LM4562, but its vocals sound a little unnatural – muffled. Therefore, I returned the NE5532 first, the vocals sound acceptable in it, but everything else is noticeably worse than the LM4562. As a result, both chips do not suit me (vocals are very important to me), I ordered several more different popular OP, I will listen to them and draw conclusions myself. Now I have returned the LM4562 and in general I like their sound more, however, every time on my favorite vocal parts or even on regular podcasts I hear this muffled voice – it makes me a little uncomfortable and I really wait for the new chips to come (I'm even thinking about connecting a tone corrector).

Try an actual experiment rather than a thought experiment.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

It’s not that complicated for me personally.
I just swap at my leisure and choose the one I like the most….

 

[AdamG]

Another one to the ignore list....

Bonus points for posting in the most appropriate thread.

 

[AdamG]

Will she ever be able to see ultraviolet or infrared? Can anyone else?

With the proper equipment, yes. Are we seeing it, or are we seeing a miniaturized computer screen replication? Specialized Engineered Equipment allows us to see and measure physical properties that are beyond basic human capabilities. Same goes for sound.

 

[Basic Channel]

Why did Mary's room contain a Maria instead of a Mary? And is there an equivalent William's room containing a sensory deprived Guillermo?

 

[Wolf11Man]

And now the problem for me is that I really like the naturalness of the bass and the overall detail of the LM4562, but its vocals sound a little unnatural – muffled. Therefore, I returned the NE5532 first, the vocals sound acceptable in it, but everything else is noticeably worse than the LM4562.

Please concider that the TI NE5532 that was in the amp as delivered (I have the A07) is a cheap fake. If you buy a real TI 5532, the marking is very different. Sound too. Try it, may be a surprise and make more OP amp rolling quite superfluous. The NE 5532 is no bad sounding part.

 

[solderdude]

5532 type op-amps are produced by various manufacturers and among them TI.
There probably are fake 5532 around too but the lack of the TI logo does not mean it isn't a 5532 it just isn't manufactured by TI.

One can roll quite a few opamps in the A07 but should realize that the output stage+filter is the sound and distortion determining factor.
Can one hear whether or not a recording is made using 5532 or another opamp ?

 

[oleg87]

NE5532 - sounds more open, the midrange is brighter, the vocals sound closer.
LM4562 - gives more low frequencies, the bass guitars sound stunningly natural, much more details are heard, the sound becomes elastic, but the vocals move a little into the background.
For several days I conducted tests by changing the chips in my amplifier and DAC's – I heard this difference every time, including on blind tests. .. naturalness of the bass and the overall detail of the LM4562, but its vocals sound a little unnatural – muffled

As usual, the dead giveaway that someone is deep in the placebo sauce is that the attributed differences sound like a product of complex signal processing, not swapping out two linear analog components.

 

[Geert]

I specifically registered on the forum because I want to write in this topic because I have a strong argument

Can't wait...

 

[xray]

Can't wait...

It'll be a long wait

 

[Killingbeans]

What happens if we let Maria out of her black and white room into the real world, where there are many different colors, will she learn something new, will she get a new experience about color?

My answer is definitely yes.

Absolutely. It'll give her first hand experience with the way colors affect her emotions, but that's all.

It won't give her the ability to see infrared or ultraviolet. And just because she now has personal experience with the color yellow, she won't now be able to spot a dandelion in a field 500 miles away.

First hand experience doesn't make us super human.

Measurements tells us when discrepancies in audio signals become so ridiculously tiny in amplitude, that any ideas about the human ability to detect them shifts from pure speculation to desperate dreaming.

 

[Head_Unit]

Oh! 492 pages since Oct, 4, 2019 talking about this!
It is time to give a new point of view. DACs are a lie. They are not really necessary. They are used to keep us under control.

You have disclosed the secret truth. I have dispatched the Audio Police to your location, they will be taking you to the Guantanamo Listening Room...

 

[Jim Creek]

I used to argue with people who claimed audible differences in power cables, speaker wire, DACs, etc. It is a futile waste of time. The bottom line is they believe measurements don't tell the full story because there is some subtle factor that can't be measured. Only their ears can detect this unmeasurable nuance. Nothing you say will convince them otherwise. Either you trust measurements or you believe what the power cable dealers tell you. Reference Power Cord

 

[Purité Audio]

I always ask customers of their retail experience, many recount how the salesman tried to sell them ‘extras’ cables are the old favourite but recently the growth in popularity of network switches and ethernet cables, times change but the schtick remains the same.
Keith

 

[Mnyb]

OP amp (t)rolling .

* measure the damn circuit before and after . If you cant measure don't bother as you can't verify that it works properly .

* be competent enough to design the whole circuit including pcb before these attempts , because it fits physically does no guarantee that its fit for purpose in the particular application/amp. You will get obvious audible differences if the op is not fit for purpose

It's usually dunning kruger afflicted persons who read flowery descriptions of sound characteristics of OP amps on the net that do these things
I assume when your actually competent enough you don't bother , you design something else from the ground up .

in these myths its usually the venerable old 5532/5534 that takes the beating , the original designers of these circuits are obviously deaf

 

[Bernard23]

I used to argue with people who claimed audible differences in power cables, speaker wire, DACs, etc. It is a futile waste of time. The bottom line is they believe measurements don't tell the full story because there is some subtle factor that can't be measured. Only their ears can detect this unmeasurable nuance. Nothing you say will convince them otherwise. Either you trust measurements or you believe what the power cable dealers tell you. Reference Power Cord

Agree with all of this in principle. However, in practice the selection, operation and correct interpretation of the measurement system used is the difference between useful and meaningless data. For example, measuring headphones consistently with minimal uncertainty is difficult to achieve. One off data points don't mean much.
The point is we absolutely should be driven by measurement data, but it's only useful when we know something about how the measurements were taken.

 

[JeremyFife]

I specifically registered on the forum because I want to write in this topic because I have a strong argument in favor of people who hear the difference in the sound of different operational amplifiers.
I think this may affect the attitude of some people towards other dimensions of sound.

So, read about the "Mary's Room" experiment — this is my main argument.

This is a thought experiment, the essence of which is as follows:
Imagine a researcher of color, Maria. Maria has studied the neurophysiology of color all her life, but all the time she was in a black-and-white room, where absolutely everything is black and white, even her monitor is black and white and, let's imagine that she herself is also colorless. At the same time, Maria has studied color so well that she knows all the information about color that can be obtained. She knows the wavelengths of all colors, knows which neurons transmit the signal from the retina to the brain and what is happening at this time in the brain itself. She sees all the graphs of color measurements, she has all the data about each color, but she has never seen the colors themselves.
What happens if we let Maria out of her black and white room into the real world, where there are many different colors, will she learn something new, will she get a new experience about color?

My answer is definitely yes.

This experiment shows that even with the fullness of the measured information, graphs and figures, real experience can provide additional information that graphs and figures will not show.

By analogy, I think the same situation happens with sound – even the most accurate measurements of frequency response, etc. do not show the real picture.

In addition, there is a second strong argument already from the field of biology:
Any professional biologist and/or doctor specializing in hearing will confirm to you that people not only hear different frequency ranges, but they hear and perceive the frequencies themselves in different ways.
As you know, we have a snail responsible for the perception of frequencies and in this snail we may have a different number of receptors, for example (conditionally) I may have 100 receptors for the perception of 90Hz, and you have 300 receptors and you will perceive this frequency completely differently than me. This is verifiable and has been proven more than once.
Just as people with a large number of taste and olfactory receptors feel the taste of food thinner and richer.

Thus, I believe that we perceive sound in different ways and some seemingly insignificant sound nuances may be very noticeable to certain people (and for other people, accordingly, other sound nuances will be noticeable).


In conclusion, I want to say that for a long time I did not believe in different OP sounds, but I clearly heard different sound of amplifiers and DAC's, I know that they really have different frequency response.
Recently, I replaced my Yamaha AX-10 with Aiyima A07 and began to read this forum, the opinions of different users, it turned out that the manufacturer Aiyima recommends changing the OP NE5532 to LM4562 in them (they even have video instructions on how to do this on their channel).
I decided to try it.
For me, the difference between NE5532 and LM4562 turned out to be very noticeable.
NE5532 - sounds more open, the midrange is brighter, the vocals sound closer.
LM4562 - gives more low frequencies, the bass guitars sound stunningly natural, much more details are heard, the sound becomes elastic, but the vocals move a little into the background.
For several days I conducted tests by changing the chips in my amplifier and DAC's – I heard this difference every time, including on blind tests.
My wife also hears this difference.
And now the problem for me is that I really like the naturalness of the bass and the overall detail of the LM4562, but its vocals sound a little unnatural – muffled. Therefore, I returned the NE5532 first, the vocals sound acceptable in it, but everything else is noticeably worse than the LM4562. As a result, both chips do not suit me (vocals are very important to me), I ordered several more different popular OP, I will listen to them and draw conclusions myself. Now I have returned the LM4562 and in general I like their sound more, however, every time on my favorite vocal parts or even on regular podcasts I hear this muffled voice – it makes me a little uncomfortable and I really wait for the new chips to come (I'm even thinking about connecting a tone corrector).

so ... Maria comes out of her B&W room and is astounded by all the colour ... "look a those two blue [things] they are so different" she exclaims.
Then Maria remembers her training and measures the light reflected from the two blue things.
"Oh" she says, "actually they are identical" ... her knowledge kicks in, she recognises that her personal perception is at play here and marvels at her brain's ability to process the two identical things so differently.
Before Maria can leave though, a helpful shopkeeper appears - "would you like to buy one of the beautiful blue things? The one on the left is quite a bit more expensive, but it is a far nicer blue as I am sure you can tell"
"F"£$%^ off laughs Maria, they are identical - I'll have the cheap one thanks!"

Maria goes off to live her newly colourful life very happily, not troubled at all by the difference between the actual colours of things and her personal perception.

 

[donahana]

Been reading a bit about audio every now and then as I ditched my Edifier S350DB recently, now I'm rocking a pair of Dali Oberon 1 with the Aiyima A07 Max amp and Topping DX1 DAC, kinda wanted to spend some money on better (or "better") gear as I'm just starting in the audio world and I do enjoy the "progression process" through new hobbies, but it seems like there'd be no benefits at all as to sound quality if I were to upgrade my amp or DAC so I guess I'm already close to my final setup?

Always been a skeptic and oh boy, there's so much snake oil in the audio industry and people claiming to hear differences even when there aren't any that it kinda makes me wanna back away from getting into it too much lol, funny how on every single blind-test I've seen so far people can't reliably tell stuff apart, be it DACs or coathanger wire vs expensive cables.

Recently when I was buying cables for my first setup I asked for short cables (1-1.5m would be more than enough) as I'm using the speakers nearfield on my desktop (ears are 80cm~ away from the speakers) and I don't want excess cable clutter, and I was told I shouldn't go for cables shorter than 2m? Dude's words:

The cables are designed to take on the sound characteristics after a range, the standard being 2m, anything above that is beneficial, but you start paying a premium where more expensive cables become very expensive if you increase the footage so the standard is 2.5m for box cables, below 2m will harm the quality

Another question is if in the future you decide to adjust the system, move the boxes away, change the environment, anyway, less than 2.5m will limit where you can position it and you will need to buy new cables

About the last part sure, but realistically 1m is more than I'll ever need on my desktop setup, if I do end up changing the environment then I can just buy new cables instead of dealing with unnecessary clutter, my PC already has enough unnecessarily long cables.

His first claim makes no sense at all to me but hey, maybe I'm the one who's wrong? Felt really weird to me cause he didn't try to upsell me on more expensive speakers (even though I literally asked) yet he's claiming cables under 2m will hurt quality which in my mind makes no sense at all, is he suffering from some sort of audiophile syndrome or is there anything to support that?

EDIT: Also gonna add that all those audio claims kinda remind me of perfume/fragrance reviewers, incredible how they can tell apart every single perfume note and talk about them in detail when they're reading the description, but pretty sad how even the supposedly most experienced ones can barely tell a single note just by sniff-testing lol