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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

Cambridge Audio claim that a majority of staff ( presumably statistically significant ) could tell the difference in a blind test between their new and a previous model of streamer.
It is extremely difficult selling gear if your pitch speak is something in the vicinity of ‘try out our brand new dac/amp/streamer, it looks fabulous and sounds identical to our old one’…which would be the truth.
 
Cambridge Audio claim that a majority of staff ( presumably statistically significant ) could tell the difference in a blind test between their new and a previous model of streamer.
Probably because the previous model had a flaw...
 
Cambridge Audio claim that a majority of staff ( presumably statistically significant ) could tell the difference in a blind test between their new and a previous model of streamer.

Audio companies claim all kinds of things all the time.

Lets see their test procedure and the resulting data, and then we can talk.
 
The one thing that I wonder about -- and I'm genuinely asking, not trolling -- is if DAC's are a solved problem, what exactly are all the engineers at DCS, Chord, and MSB building? Bulls--t machines? Are they self-deluded or actively trying to delude their customers? I have a hard time believing that a bunch of top-notch engineers are getting into the niche business of high-end audio to con people. What's inside of the three boxes of the MSB Cascade DAC, a bunch of rusty nails? Surely there's some purpose to all of the gear. Is it just to color the sound to their personal taste? Personally, I've owned only ASR-approved Topping DAC's, so I have no agenda other than curiosity. I'd love more than anything else for the ASR school of thought to be the right one, as it would justify my purchases and save me a lot of money going forward. And much as I'd love to put the issue to rest with a blind listening test, I can't afford an MSB DAC. Moreover, I don't have a single friend with an R2R DAC, let alone an expensive one, so the blind listening test is not going to happen. I simply wish there were more clarity and civilized discussion rather than the subjectivist and objectivist camps mocking each other.
It's simple. If they don't, their competitors do, and then they don't sell any product. They go out of business.

They may be deluded - or scam artists. Or they might be trying to give their customers the best they can in terms of features and functionality, at the best price, while being alongside the top in terms of sound quality (ie audibly perfect)

Of course - it is only in the lower priced end of the market that the latter can be the case. Once you get into multi thousand pound dacs, they are selling something they can't deliver any better than topping can. Other than Veblen.
 
You have to wonder why these manufacturers don't commission an independent third party to perform such a blind test, they would only have to find one person who can reliably tell the difference to prove that their equipment has an advantage, and it would open up a whole additional customer base from the people who could afford their equipment but are currently sceptical

There are plenty of people who reckon they easily hear the improvement so no shortage of potential test subjects. They can start with the people in their marketing department :)

But they don't do this, and neither do the cable companies or any of the other makers of products that have supposed sound quality advantages that 'cannot currently be measured.' Why is that?
They've cultivated a client that doesn't believe in that anyway. So it would not convince them of anything even if they did it. You are a highly elite customer of discriminating taste that does not need someone else's test to validate your elite status.
 
Cambridge Audio claim that a majority of staff ( presumably statistically significant ) could tell the difference in a blind test between their new and a previous model of streamer.
And Synergistic Research claim to have a blind-testing room where their staff blind test their products. No results published, no peer review, no third party scrutiny.

Anyone can claim anything, it's not hard and costs nothing.
 
They've cultivated a client that doesn't believe in that anyway. So it would not convince them of anything even if they did it. You are a highly elite customer of discriminating taste that does not need someone else's test to validate your elite status.
They don't need to convince the believers, they took their money already. They need to convince people like you and me. That they don't even try says it all.
 
As a professional marketer, power tools, you can bet your ass that I use comparative test data to help sell our products. Where we have an edge in performance, cutting speed, motor power, battery or blade lifespan, or cut accuracy, for example, this always finds its way into the product presentations.

I can't imagine a situation where I was able to provide proof of Improved performance that I wouldn't use it in the marketing.

Proof of audible differences/improvement would be the absolute gold standard for any marketer. Yet none present this. And very few ever try. The best we get is measured differences a couple of orders of magnitude below accepted audibility.

We're as guilty of that as anyone, there's no point replacing a - 118db thd+n dac with one that does -125db.. it's just pointless specmanship. No more than an interesting technical curiosity....
 
They don't need to convince the believers, they took their money already. They need to convince people like you and me. That they don't even try says it all.
I think you are missing the point. They haven't necessarily sold to every person already believing what they are pushing. The number of those people is greater than people like us. So the smart thing economically is for them to ignore such testing and continue pushing the ideas that are still working for them. If they could come up with such a test with positive results for their gear would they publish it? I think there is no need, and no benefit as you are then marketing on a discussion that is in the cheaper competitor's wheelhouse. Nothing to be gained.

I do agree the odds are, no test will show such an advantage so it isn't an option for them anyway.
 
Cambridge Audio claim that a majority of staff ( presumably statistically significant ) could tell the difference in a blind test between their new and a previous model of streamer.
That's what they claim. Now, can they prove it to me?
 
And Synergistic Research claim to have a blind-testing room where their staff blind test their products. No results published, no peer review, no third party scrutiny.

Anyone can claim anything, it's not hard and costs nothing.
Indeed , Geithain claimed that they couldn't hear the difference between class A/B amps and Icepower amps in their actives in blind tests so that was probably just a marketing gimmick .
 
Why test when you can just use the word “may” in your product literature?
 
. If they could come up with such a test with positive results for their gear would they publish it? I think there is no need, and no benefit as you are then marketing on a discussion that is in the cheaper competitor's wheelhouse. Nothing to be gained.

I do agree the odds are, no test will show such an advantage so it isn't an option for them anyway.
I'm not sure that is the case. Audiophiles are quick to declare their disdain or disregard for measurements and blind testing but if they see a measurement or blind test that supports, or seems to support their belief, they are on it in a flash.

I don't think producing genuine evidence of superiority or even a real difference would hurt their sales, quite the opposite.

They don't go there because they already know they have nothing. That's the sole reason.
 
It is extremely difficult selling gear if your pitch speak is something in the vicinity of ‘try out our brand new dac/amp/streamer, it looks fabulous and sounds identical to our old one’…which would be the truth.
And to everyone else’s.
Keith
 
I should add that I would welcome the idea that there is a magic box or cable that I just buy and plug in and it improves sound quality.

I would love them to prove me wrong and show me that I would not just be spending money on a placebo effect. My money is there for the taking, if they care to step up.
 
I should add that I would welcome the idea that there is a magic box or cable that I just buy and plug in and it improves sound quality.

I would love them to prove me wrong and show me that I would not just be spending money on a placebo effect. My money is there for the taking, if they care to step up.
So you are going to spend several tens of thousands of dollars if it is very slightly better and proved to you?
 
The customers dictate the market, as always. As long as there are poorly-educated customers with money to spend, these products will exist. And who will educate them? Not the hi-fi press, not the Youtube influencers - they all have a stake in the same game.

Added to which, many of the customers want to believe. After a lifetime of being marketed to it's not easy to accept that a full DCS stack at £100K and a Topping E30 at £140 are functionally identical. But there is zero evidence that anyone can tell them apart in controlled testing.
The thing is, this mostly financial deception will continue when the likes of Rob Watts do mini-lectures espousing his marketing spiel regarding audibility of -300dB and so on (and noise floor modulation which I thought was a solved issue these days) and when the mostly 'my age' listeners are all mopping it up and nodding sagely as happened in one of his presentations some years back that I attended...
 
I should add that I would welcome the idea that there is a magic box or cable that I just buy and plug in and it improves sound quality.
How do you define “sound quality”?

Here is this headphone cable with an abnormally high impedance (resistance) on the common ground wire. It creates a crossfeed effect, which can be perceived as improving the sound quality of the headphones.
Would it prove you wrong?
 
How do you define “sound quality”?

Here is this headphone cable with an abnormally high impedance (resistance) on the common ground wire. It creates a crossfeed effect, which can be perceived as improving the sound quality of the headphones.
Would it prove you wrong?
We know the 'why' in that case, so not the same thing.

Appreciate your point though and it's a good one.
 
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