Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[antcollinet]

I would also like to point out that in professional world...where studio speakers needs to be neutral and flat.....not all of them sound the same....

I don't think anyone has claimed that speakers (even well measuring ones) sound the same. Way to many variables for that.

 

[whataboutmusic]

Is anyone suggesting you search for only the best measuring DAC?

I don't believe most here believe that makes much sense.



You're still making the assumption that you'd be able to tell them apart.



Back to the lack of controls leading to random conclusions. What if the reviewer had a bad day?



After being convinced I could, then coming here and being challenged to test my own assumptions and setting up a blind test with the output levels matched by voltmeter, I couldn't hear what i was sure I could hear minutes before.

I sent the Multi-Kilobuck DAC back, and reallocated those resources towards a theater full of powered JBL 7 series monitors, where my musical enjoyment was increased much more than even a very nice DAC could ever hope to. I have no problem with having nice stuff just because it is nice, but once I stopped looking for improvement where physics tells me it is unlikely to exist, I instead tried to find and pursue where the real improvements are. For most, that's going to be the speakers and room. Learning how to do some basic measurements with free software and a calibrated microphone can take things to that next level, where you can really see what's going on in your room.

No one is suggesting anything I am asking to understand better the perception.

I have been able to tell apart the dacs I have listened to till now...not on a blind test though...just using them with my stuff...in the meaning that I could hear a difference among them. I am not talking about the reviewer but for my self. I have tried good equipment and didn't like it.

Unfortunately I can't use speakers I only use headphones...but I have seen how much of a difference room treatment can make and I agree that its the first in line because if you don't have that nothing else matters.

 

[whataboutmusic]

I don't think anyone has claimed that speakers (even well measuring ones) sound the same. Way to many variables for that.

Yes but why not? If they can built electronics that can preform completely transparent and drive to perfection matched to detail drivers...with the ultimate goal of neutral and flat sound in a controlled and treated room of a studio....

why bother with different materials and technologies and class d or ab amps and end up with focals sounds different than dynaudio? which of them is off in regard of tonality? sorry if this is off topic because we are talking about dac's....

 

[pablolie]

... sorry if this is off topic because we are talking about dac's....

it isnt off topic. when we talk about gear with claims to total and complete transparency, the source is the limiting factor, in every way. u will hear how it was mixed with the equipment on hand.

there is so much vull floating around top engineers only using the top gear, set up in audio nirvana... and that is a garbage claim.

 

[oleg87]

why bother with different materials and technologies and class d or ab amps and end up with focals sounds different than dynaudio? which of them is off in regard of tonality? sorry if this is off topic because we are talking about dac's....

I would argue that (product aesthetics/feature set/usability aside) the electronics side of audio is largely very uninteresting in 2023, unless you have very specific needs. But thanks to the limitations of human perception, keeping product sales moving is a question of effective marketing, differentiation, gimmicks and buzzwords.

 

[whataboutmusic]

it isnt off topic. when we talk about gear with claims to total and complete transparency, the source is the limiting factor, in every way.

But is it for the professional world? If there are dacs and amps that are completely transparent why not someone can create a speaker that under studio circumstances preforms like that as well?

How does transparent sounds like in the end if humans 99% of the time can't hear it?

 

[antcollinet]

Yes but why not? If they can built electronics that can preform completely transparent and drive to perfection matched to detail drivers...with the ultimate goal of neutral and flat sound in a controlled and treated room of a studio....

why bother with different materials and technologies and class d or ab amps and end up with focals sounds different than dynaudio? which of them is off in regard of tonality? sorry if this is off topic because we are talking about dac's....

Like I say - far too many variables : "neutral and flat sound" (which also doesn't exist for speakers by the way) is only one of them. No such thing as a completely transparent speaker. Or headphone, or any other transducer.

 

[whataboutmusic]

I would argue that (product aesthetics/feature set/usability aside) the electronics side of audio is largely very uninteresting in 2023, unless you have very specific needs. But thanks to the limitations of human perception, keeping product sales moving is a question of effective marketing, differentiation, gimmicks and buzzwords.

So what system....someone who wants the purest sound....should pursue?

I don't mean fancy but hi fidelity...

 

[pablolie]

But is it for the professional world? If there are dacs and amps that are completely transparent why not someone can create a speaker that under studio circumstances preforms like that as well?

How does transparent sounds like in the end if humans 99% of the time can't hear it?

my entire point is that it is quite easy to have highly resolving gear in our home environments, yet i KNOW many studios do their stuff with 25 year old gear they spent a lot of $ back in the day.

 

[oleg87]

So what system....someone who wants the purest sound....should pursue?

I don't mean fancy but hi fidelity...

Make an exact copy of whatever mastering room most of your favorite recordings were mastered on, I guess!

The circle of confusion here is wide enough that it's just not worth sweating too much over.

 

[whataboutmusic]

Like I say - far too many variables : "neutral and flat sound" (which also doesn't exist for speakers by the way) is only one of them. No such thing as a completely transparent speaker. Or headphone, or any other transducer.

That is also my point....What it matters if my dac and amp measure flat if my speakers can't communicate me that information?

 

[whataboutmusic]

my entire point is that it is quite easy to have highly resolving gear in our home environments, yet i KNOW many studios do their stuff with 25 year old gear they spent a lot of $ back in the day.

Do they sound all the same though? I mean the new stuff and the 25 years old? Or they just used to mix on those?

If yes why change it? Studios are business too I guess...

 

[Norcal]

That is also my point....What it matters if my dac and amp measure flat if my speakers can't communicate me that information?

I think most folks would wish to isolate the remaining 'variability' down to as few (or a single) component(s) as possible so that it can be better addressed or understood.

 

[BDWoody]

Yes but why not? If they can built electronics that can preform completely transparent and drive to perfection

If something has moving parts, it's different than SS electronics where the device can be much more easily characterized. A speaker/headphone/cartridge (any transducer) is a motor, and it becomes more complicated.

So what system....someone who wants the purest sound....should pursue?

I don't mean fancy but hi fidelity...

For non-transducers, I'd say flat frequency response, and distortion and noise below audibility to start. Beyond that, I want to be sure I have appropriate impedance and power. Clipping will kill good sound, so give me plenty of power to avoid that, and low enough impedance to be able to drive whatever it is driving. Those things don't have to be expensive.

I have amps from Krell, Adcom, Devialet, Bryston and more. I don't believe I could tell any of them apart if they weren't driven to clipping.

 

[Blumlein 88]

No one is suggesting anything I am asking to understand better the perception.

I have been able to tell apart the dacs I have listened to till now...not on a blind test though...just using them with my stuff...in the meaning that I could hear a difference among them. I am not talking about the reviewer but for my self. I have tried good equipment and didn't like it.

Unfortunately I can't use speakers I only use headphones...but I have seen how much of a difference room treatment can make and I agree that its the first in line because if you don't have that nothing else matters.

Try this exercise. I played music on a DAC, recorded it with an ADC. Took the recording and played over DAC recording with an ADC. Rinse and repeat until I have 8th generation copies. If a DAC has a sound, and an ADC has a sound, and you combine them and repeat 8 times it should be much more obvious. See if it sounds obvious to you. In this link are two different versions of this earlier in this very thread. You can listen over your own gear to the original file and 8th generation distant copies. I didn't label them, so see if you can tell them apart.

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

...that is the best take on the subject I have seen so far... ...it is clear to any thinking person that there are asspects involved we have no way to measure... ...it was just stated there are only three asspects measured at the current state of the art...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[LTig]

So what system....someone who wants the purest sound....should pursue?

I don't mean fancy but hi fidelity...

Get electronics (sources, DACs, preamp) which measures audibly transparent, and active speakers suited to your room, listening distance and max SPL requirements. This way you need not worry about matching power amp with passive speakers. Going with Genelec or Neumann monitors will give you an end game system hard to beat pricewise using passive speakers.

 

[pablolie]

Do they sound all the same though? I mean the new stuff and the 25 years old? Or they just used to mix on those?

If yes why change it? Studios are business too I guess...

Of course not all studio recordings are not equally competent or use the best gear or whatever. More often than not the original is the bottleneck these days, provided you hav decent gear (which isn't hard or overly expensive to come by these days).

 

[Galliardist]

That is also my point....What it matters if my dac and amp measure flat if my speakers can't communicate me that information?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

The evidence is that most people prefer well measuring electronics, regardless of speaker choice, in controlled tests.

But let's start with the obvious. If we take as our source not two different DACs, but two different recordings. We expect two different recordings to sound different even if the speakers are seriously coloured (i.e. distorting). This is a bit of a reductio ad absurdum, but if speakers are poor at communicating difference, then we can posit that a bad enough speaker may make the recordings sound the same. Above a very poor standard, that won't be the case.

If we then take the same recording and play it on two turntables where one is very poorly set up and the other not, we will still hear the difference even if the speakers are seriously coloured. Now take two very different sounding DACs, one that is neutral and one that is poorly distorting... well, you should have the idea by now.

The speakers will communicate the information conveyed to them and you will hear the difference - as long as your brain doesn't get in the way.

Beyond that, I want to be sure I have appropriate impedance and power.

Take note of this. In order for two DACs to sound the same, even if they measure to be audibly similar, everything else has to be right. The correct formulation for the premise is that if you remove all the known differences in audibility, then they will sound the same. That's not so easy to do. Any test has to be properly level matched, any filter choices have to be similar enough not to cause difference, the test has to be properly blinded to the listener, the system as a whole has to be correctly matched. A little louder, an impedance or gain mismatch, is quite enough to make DACs sound different, and without complete knowledge of the whole system anyone reading a test description can miss an audible difference.

However...

I have been able to tell apart the dacs I have listened to till now...not on a blind test though...just using them with my stuff...in the meaning that I could hear a difference among them.

There is a HiFi News editorial from 2013, where Paul Miller received an early example of the PS Audio Directstream DAC. This DAC had previously been subjectively reviewed for another publication, and there was a copious description of the exact differences between the various filters - but when measuring it, Miller found no difference whatsoever, so he contacted the company. Guess what? The software for the filters had not even been written.

Such is the power of suggestion and sighted listening. The lesson here is that your brain only trusts your ears when it is forced to do so, through controlled testing. That is the same for everyone.

Use that lesson wisely.

 

[RayDunzl]

I have amps from Krell, Adcom, Devialet, Bryston and more. I don't believe I could tell any of them apart if they weren't driven to clipping.

When Audio Buddy and I went to the Florida Audio Expo, after visiting a few rooms, we decided that despite all the lovely electronical gear and accessories being hawked, the only thing we were really "hearing" was speakers and subs (if present) and rooms (some having added treatment and some not).

Next Year:

Exhibitors - Florida Audio Expo

Enjoy amazing exhibits of high end audio gear at one of the largest shows.

floridaaudioexpo.com

 

[solderdude]

they were not tests...just random listening to music with whatever I had in hand at the time...first the nad and then the zen stack and the rme....I ended up selling both nad and the rme and keeping just the zen stack.

There is nothing wrong with that. It is the way 99% of the population selects their gear.
This is what leads to hearing differences that are, very likely, not detectable any more under blind conditions.
If you really want to know you should compare things in a controlled way just once... just to find out.
It can be a surprising eye opener and save you money in the future.
That said... for some this takes away some of the fun for some people.