Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[all24bits]

Even if the there was a difference when the AQ was plugged in (and there may have been, in line with my prior post), the descriptions that you have used have no basis in science. For instance, unless your head was moved or the speakers were moved, there is no way for there to be "more space between the instruments". Even if your head or the speakers were moved, it would take a VERY unusual recording (and deliberately so) to exhibit a difference in the layout of the mixed recording. The vast majority of recordings are panned mono, and the "space" between signals is fixed. (pls see The Franssen Effect #2, and derivatives thereof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franssen_effect )

Another problem is the phrase, " ... a blacker background...". I would assume (yes, I know that I shouldn't do that) that you mean the noise level of the recording when there is no signal. Normally speaking, this would only be noticeable if there was a radical difference in noise level overall .... because noise in a circuit doesn't go up and down according to portions of the recording. Electronic circuits don't know which part of a song or recording they're being tasked to reproduce. They can't think. So you would notice a noisier environment when music was playing, too.
OTOH, if you're talking about a "blacker background" only when the music is playing, that doesn't exist.

When you say, " ... more 'pop' to the music ...", that term is so vague and meaningless that people can only guess what you mean. Subjective terms are not universal. They are not reliably able to transfer meanings from one person to another. I have no idea what you mean by that.

As for "sparkle", the thing that comes to mind is frequency response. However .... a digital signal doesn't change frequency response by itself; it is an unerring slave. And if the speakers or output levels were not changed, those cannot change frequency response, either. So what remains in your system to change frequency response and cause "sparkle"?
That would be interesting to investigate.

I wish you good luck. I would also like to make a comment: you seem very upset that people here don't believe you. You seem to think that their disbelief means that they are your enemies.

Nothing could be further from the truth. No one is your enemy here. As I said before, they are simply disagreeing with you, and they are doing so on the basis of sound principles. They might be the best friends you can have in the audio world. They would like that. I would like that. Give it a chance, and you might like it, too.

Jim

Well, I got the test results right, so either a) i have superhuman hearing or b) my mind made up the entire thing and still got lucky with the results.

Either way, I'm happy with the outcome. [and no I'm mad anyone doubts me. Like I said, I'm the only one who has to care]

 

[all24bits]

What is it that you think the cheaper and expensive cables are doing?

Could be the impedence of the cables. I'm not really sure. I'm sure Audioholics could shed light on that. (I think they actually have a video over different cable impedences and how it may/may not affect sound) The 400 dollar cables were sharper, more defined and brighter. More sibilance. More detail level and more "in your face" sounding. I realized after a while that was a really fatiguing sound. The cheaper cables are smoother, warmer and more laid back. They don't have the "jump" factor or stage factor, but they're a lot easier to listen to on my particular speakers.

 

[Doodski]

Could be the impedence of the cables. I'm not really sure. I'm sure Audioholics could shed light on that. (I think they actually have a video over different cable impedences and how it may/may not affect sound) The 400 dollar cables were sharper, more defined and brighter. More sibilance. More detail level and more "in your face" sounding. I realized after a while that was a really fatiguing sound. The cheaper cables are smoother, warmer and more laid back. They don't have the "jump" factor or stage factor, but they're a lot easier to listen to on my particular speakers.

Can you elaborate on what expensive cables you where AB'ing?

 

[all24bits]

Can you elaborate on what expensive cables you where AB'ing?

I was running AQ Rocket 44 into Monitor Audio speakers from a Marantz. The Blue Jeans (I think that's what they are, they're unbranded and I got them on Ebay and they seem almost identical to what I saw from Blue Jeans' site) I THINK are Mogami wire. I returned the Rocket 44 as I just don't think they work well with brighter speakers. "Technically" they sounded "better" but they definitely were not more "pleasant". Reminds me of a friend's dad's McIntosh and Klipschorn system I heard. Yeah, technically stunning. Did I enjoy it? Nope.

Another note since we're talking about pricing: expensive DACs are not always better either. I've heard the Chord TT2 + MScaler combo multiple times. I don't think it's *that* much better than some of my cheaper DACs I've owned. I can definitely tell a difference but it's right there in the ballpark as the others. Where the others would be middle class or upper middle class, the TT2 would be very slightly higher upper middle class. Just not a huge gulf between them. A guy at an audio show and I auditioned it one time right after another (the other guy tends to bring $20k - $30k at LEAST worth of gear to every show) and we looked at the owner and both told him that didn't sound like $10k worth of audio and the guy got REALLY mad. It was kind of funny.

 

[kemmler3D]

I was running AQ Rocket 44 into Monitor Audio speakers from a Marantz. The Blue Jeans (I think that's what they are, they're unbranded and I got them on Ebay and they seem almost identical to what I saw from Blue Jeans' site) I THINK are Mogami wire. I returned the Rocket 44 as I just don't think they work well with brighter speakers. "Technically" they sounded "better" but they definitely were not more "pleasant". Reminds me of a friend's dad's McIntosh and Klipschorn system I heard. Yeah, technically stunning. Did I enjoy it? Nope.

Another note since we're talking about pricing: expensive DACs are not always better either. I've heard the Chord TT2 + MScaler combo multiple times. I don't think it's *that* much better than some of my cheaper DACs I've owned. I can definitely tell a difference but it's right there in the ballpark as the others. Where the others would be middle class or upper middle class, the TT2 would be very slightly higher upper middle class. Just not a huge gulf between them. A guy at an audio show and I auditioned it one time right after another (the other guy tends to bring $20k - $30k at LEAST worth of gear to every show) and we looked at the owner and both told him that didn't sound like $10k worth of audio and the guy got REALLY mad. It was kind of funny.

Let me put it this way - would you be willing to consider the possibility that what you heard in some of these comparisons happened in your brain and not the equipment? Nobody is saying you didn't hear anything... just that the cause of what you heard could be misattributed.

As others have said, literally every time these things are put to a proper test, that's the outcome. We're well aware that there is a contrary consensus out there, with many personal experiences to back it up... but the hard evidence points the other way.

I myself have heard things that simply weren't there, more than once. If you spend enough time fiddling with EQ knobs in your job, eventually you will run into this. You turn the knob, the effect is there, but smaller than you thought... you wonder why the EQ is only working about 1/4 of the way... until you realize the EQ is disabled entirely. Very humbling, very real.

Think about it like this. There are forums full of people who know for a fact they've seen ghosts. There are exactly zero actual photos of ghosts. See what I mean?

 

[all24bits]

Let me put it this way - would you be willing to consider the possibility that what you heard in some of these comparisons happened in your brain and not the equipment? Nobody is saying you didn't hear anything... just that the cause of what you heard could be misattributed.

I myself have heard things that simply weren't there, more than once. If you spend enough time fiddling with EQ knobs in your job, eventually you will run into this. You turn the knob, the effect is there, but smaller than you thought... you wonder why the EQ is only working about 1/4 of the way... until you realize the EQ is disabled entirely. Very humbling, very real.

Yes, anything is possible. It's very weird that I keep hearing the same differences on different equipment, as well as the same equipment over and over and over again though. And it's certainly not a "more expensive is better" frame of mind, since I've heard cheaper gear sound better than more expensive gear plenty of times.

And yes, I've heard things that definitely weren't there upon further examination, such as what you mentioned. I think it's happened to everyone, .

 

[SIY]

And yes, I've heard things that definitely weren't there upon further examination, such as what you mentioned. I think it's happened to everyone, .

Indeed it does and it happens constantly. So seriously, before contemplating that the same engineering that allows us to send space probes to Neptune, image single atoms, separate pulses of light with sub-femtosecond resolution, and detect neutrinos is somehow inadequate to accurately describe the decoding and transmission of slow AC signals, you might indeed consider the vastly more likely possibility that your human brain is fooling you.

And equally seriously, that sentence of yours I quoted back is an important one. Very important.

 

[kemmler3D]

An interesting book on the subject of the brain affecting hearing (or vice-versa) is Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks.

It doesn't go into audio per se, but he does describe an experience of amusia, where he stopped being able to perceive music as music. With amusia, music just sounds like noise to you. (He got over it.) For most of us, this is pretty hard to imagine, but it proves the point that the brain has the most sway over what we hear, to the point that it can make music not music anymore.

So, I find it easy to believe the brain can make us hear all sorts of crap when it comes to gear, especially when we expect to hear something.

Closer to home: I have tinnitus, which is when your brain decides to insert a constant tone into what you hear, because why not? However, if I put in foam earplugs and concentrate, I can make it go away for a while just by thinking about it going away. Even mild tinnitus is a lot more obvious than small changes in tonality or stereo image...

 

[Doodski]

I was running AQ Rocket 44 into Monitor Audio speakers from a Marantz. The Blue Jeans (I think that's what they are, they're unbranded and I got them on Ebay and they seem almost identical to what I saw from Blue Jeans' site) I THINK are Mogami wire. I returned the Rocket 44 as I just don't think they work well with brighter speakers. "Technically" they sounded "better" but they definitely were not more "pleasant". Reminds me of a friend's dad's McIntosh and Klipschorn system I heard. Yeah, technically stunning. Did I enjoy it? Nope.

Another note since we're talking about pricing: expensive DACs are not always better either. I've heard the Chord TT2 + MScaler combo multiple times. I don't think it's *that* much better than some of my cheaper DACs I've owned. I can definitely tell a difference but it's right there in the ballpark as the others. Where the others would be middle class or upper middle class, the TT2 would be very slightly higher upper middle class. Just not a huge gulf between them. A guy at an audio show and I auditioned it one time right after another (the other guy tends to bring $20k - $30k at LEAST worth of gear to every show) and we looked at the owner and both told him that didn't sound like $10k worth of audio and the guy got REALLY mad. It was kind of funny.

Proper speaker wire for audio applications is simply a resistor in physics terms. It has no noticeable effects on the sound and simply causes a very small voltage drop that is inconsequential to the human ear. Are you conducting blind listening tests that are voltage matched so the speaker gets the same energy from whatever is feeding it?

 

[all24bits]

And equally seriously, that sentence of yours I quoted back is an important one. Very important.

But (probably) not in this case.

 

[all24bits]

Proper speaker wire for audio applications is simply a resistor in physics terms. It has no noticeable effects on the sound and simply causes a very small voltage drop that is inconsequential to the human ear. Are you conducting blind listening tests that are voltage matched so the speaker gets the same energy from whatever is feeding it?

No, I don't sit around making sure my voltages are the same and have people administer blind listening tests every time I want to audition gear. Seriously, what even is that. Is that how certain people enjoy the hobby? Making sure they have to blind test something in a laboratory setting before they can determine if they're REALLY enjoying (or not enjoying) what they're auditioning? I hook up wires to my Marantz and listen. I unhook the wires and hook up new ones and press "play". I listen and take notes. That's how normal people listen. Most of my music friends have no interest in crawling behind things and unhooking/hooking up wires. that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of people waiting 20 or 30 years to enjoy/listen to certain music to make sure it's still "relevant" in that timeframe. (and yes, there are people who do that)

 

[SIY]

But (probably) not in this case.

Well, if you're curious about reality, it's not hard to set up a well-controlled test, and people here will be glad to help. If you're content with belief, then stay away from anything related to science. Talking with hard-nosed realists will not be a pleasant experience for you.

 

[Beave]

No, I don't sit around making sure my voltages are the same and have people administer blind listening tests every time I want to audition gear. Seriously, what even is that. Is that how certain people enjoy the hobby? Making sure they have to blind test something in a laboratory setting before they can determine if they're REALLY enjoying (or not enjoying) what they're auditioning? I hook up wires to my Marantz and listen. I unhook the wires and hook up new ones and press "play". I listen and take notes. That's how normal people listen. Most of my music friends have no interest in crawling behind things and unhooking/hooking up wires. that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of people waiting 20 or 30 years to enjoy/listen to certain music to make sure it's still "relevant" in that timeframe. (and yes, there are people who do that)

That's a rather strange mischaracterization, especially given that earlier you claimed that you yourself have done blind comparisons of DACs, digital cables, speaker cables, etc.

So doing blind comparisons is a normal part of the hobby to you? Or not? Or controlled listening comparisons only go too far when they require level matching?

I'm rather confused by the inconsistencies here.

When you write "enjoy the hobby," what *hobby* are you referring to? Listening to music? Measuring gear? Auditioning gear?

When it comes to auditioning gear, the only gear I bother to "audition" is speakers. I have enough experience with my own blind testing of DACs, cables, speaker wire, etc - plus my own understanding of basic EE principles - to know that there is nothing to "audition."

 

[Blumlein 88]

No, I don't sit around making sure my voltages are the same and have people administer blind listening tests every time I want to audition gear. Seriously, what even is that. Is that how certain people enjoy the hobby? Making sure they have to blind test something in a laboratory setting before they can determine if they're REALLY enjoying (or not enjoying) what they're auditioning? I hook up wires to my Marantz and listen. I unhook the wires and hook up new ones and press "play". I listen and take notes. That's how normal people listen. Most of my music friends have no interest in crawling behind things and unhooking/hooking up wires. that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of people waiting 20 or 30 years to enjoy/listen to certain music to make sure it's still "relevant" in that timeframe. (and yes, there are people who do that)

No people here enjoy music. Finding out you can spend 25% of what you might and have results that are as good as possible is a benefit. You can spend money where the sound is really better. You can spend money on better speakers. What you are describing follows the common plot of such experience to the T. So much so it is almost a caricature of the experience. So much so we can be pretty certain it is in your head, and not in reality. So with a preponderance of long and hard earned knowledge directly against your experience you have to bring more than a description of that experience, your heart felt expression of belief combined with a refusal to do more if you want us to believe you. We don't need the semi-spiritual listening rituals to find out what we enjoy. We buy good gear, find speakers we like and get on with it.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You fly here and set it up then. I could video record a set of tests but then I would be accused of possibly rigging the tests and faking the video. Then how is a peer review going to happen for a video for an event these peer reviewers were never part of ?

I tell people my eyes were closed and they insist my eyes were open and the test was compromised even tho they only found out the test existed 5 min ago and were never present for the test. Lol

Still more anecdotes. This is not how controlled tests work. You fooled yourself. But you have already been told that several times. I leave you be and stop wasting my time. Enjoy.

 

[all24bits]

That's a rather strange mischaracterization, especially given that earlier you claimed that you yourself have done blind comparisons of DACs, digital cables, speaker cables, etc.

So doing blind comparisons is a normal part of the hobby to you? Or not? Or controlled listening comparisons only go too far when they require level matching?

I'm rather confused by the inconsistencies here.

When you write "enjoy the hobby," what *hobby* are you referring to? Listening to music? Measuring gear? Auditioning gear?

When it comes to auditioning gear, the only gear I bother to "audition" is speakers. I have enough experience with my own blind testing of DACs, cables, speaker wire, etc - plus my own understanding of basic EE principles - to know that there is nothing to "audition."

I get blind tests when I'm lucky to get blind tests. They're fairly rare. Level matching wouldn't be a problem for me personally, except I don't put the time or effort into it, and have no need or real desire to. And even if i DID level match, again, people here would not accept the results as they were "sighted".

Auditioning various gear in all forms across the audio gear hobby is a normal part of my audio hobby. Power, cables, DACs, amps, speakers, etc. On one side is the music, on the other side is gear.

Do you think all amps sound alike too? So if there's nothing to audition with DACs, why are you hanging out on a forum discussing DACs (a solved science) instead of just talking about speakers?

 

[Doodski]

No, I don't sit around making sure my voltages are the same and have people administer blind listening tests every time I want to audition gear. Seriously, what even is that. Is that how certain people enjoy the hobby? Making sure they have to blind test something in a laboratory setting before they can determine if they're REALLY enjoying (or not enjoying) what they're auditioning? I hook up wires to my Marantz and listen. I unhook the wires and hook up new ones and press "play". I listen and take notes. That's how normal people listen. Most of my music friends have no interest in crawling behind things and unhooking/hooking up wires. that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of people waiting 20 or 30 years to enjoy/listen to certain music to make sure it's still "relevant" in that timeframe. (and yes, there are people who do that)

If you want credibility in your beliefs and claims then a matched, switched and blind listening test is credible and normal. There is no way on Earth that you can test speaker wires while taking your time switching them over, listen for days or hours and then switch again. This differences stuff is all in your head. The differences in speaker wire unless it is some realllly different design intentionally coloring the audio are so small that your ears and brain are incapable of differentiating them the way you test or even blind testing for that matter because they are not all that different. You listen intently, then want to hear something so badly that you imagine things and create some sort of beliefs about the speaker wires and then come here expecting to be understood while at the same time you refuse to conduct a proper test and claim people that do are not normal.

 

[Zensō]

No, I don't sit around making sure my voltages are the same and have people administer blind listening tests every time I want to audition gear. Seriously, what even is that. Is that how certain people enjoy the hobby? Making sure they have to blind test something in a laboratory setting before they can determine if they're REALLY enjoying (or not enjoying) what they're auditioning? I hook up wires to my Marantz and listen. I unhook the wires and hook up new ones and press "play". I listen and take notes. That's how normal people listen. Most of my music friends have no interest in crawling behind things and unhooking/hooking up wires. that's ridiculous. That's the equivalent of people waiting 20 or 30 years to enjoy/listen to certain music to make sure it's still "relevant" in that timeframe. (and yes, there are people who do that)

That’s all fine, seriously do whatever you please to enjoy the hobby as you define it. But if that’s the case, what are you doing here on Audio Science Review? Clearly, trying to convince people on a science-based forum that your subjective anecdotes are meaningful is a pointless endeavor.

 

[all24bits]

That’s all fine, seriously do whatever you please to enjoy the hobby. But if that’s the case, what are you doing here on Audio Science Review? Clearly, trying to convince people on a science-based forum that your subjective anecdotes are meaningful is a pointless endeavor.

I was only here by accident because I was looking up iFi stuff. Normally I avoid this place but someone asked a question and I'm not scared to answer the question.

 

[all24bits]

The differences in speaker wire unless it is some realllly different design intentionally coloring the audio

So you admit there ARE differences depending on the design.

You listen intently, then want to hear something so badly

no, I don't want to hear anything badly. I sit and I listen to what's presented. I have no pre-conceived notions. What happens when I hear two pieces of equipment that are almost identical in sound (as I have)? Am I failing to believe or hear badly? What about when I hear something expensive that sounds like crap (like I have)? Am I failing in my belief?