Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[preload]

That does not answer the question. Since you think that valid scientific test methodologies like blind ABX testing is nonsense, I don't see why you think spending time on this site will be productive for you.

If someone does not accept that an ABX test can easily exclude the existence of large/obvious differences between devices, it's not worth having the conversation. We're not talking about trivial, subtle differences. We're talking about LARGE differences, which is what is being argued here apparently.

 

[DonR]

I will go where I choose to go and I do not have to agree with the masses to exist anywhere. You asked, I answered. ABX tests have been "beaten" before and I have "beaten" them myself. I am also on Reddit, another place where you get with the masses or get voted out, but I do not always agree with the nonsense there, either!

It is not I did not answer your question, it is that I answered your question in a way that does not align with your own thoughts/feelings! Prove me wrong then, tell me how all DACS sound the same. Why are we not all buying cheap Chinese Dacs and often spendings hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment? There is no one size fits all, in the audio realm or any other. When you can notice the difference in sound very easily, it is quite simple as I stated. At the end of the day, measurements are meaningless as like speakers, you are likely going to keep the ones that sound the best to you (and should be your goal).

Why would my "brain" "think" something is happening that is not? The device is called our ears, and we all hear different. Hence why I could think something sounds great and you would disagree. For example, my Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 looked way better than my Topping E50, had more inputs, was rackmountable, much cooler. Yet, it did not sound as good as my E50 did. Guess which one I kept and which one I sold?

My cognitive dissonance is just fine, thanks though.

You appear to be unaware of cognitive bias.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I will go where I choose to go and I do not have to agree with the masses to exist anywhere. You asked, I answered. ABX tests have been "beaten" before and I have "beaten" them myself. I am also on Reddit, another place where you get with the masses or get voted out, but I do not always agree with the nonsense there, either!

It is not I did not answer your question, it is that I answered your question in a way that does not align with your own thoughts/feelings! Prove me wrong then, tell me how all DACS sound the same. Why are we not all buying cheap Chinese Dacs and often spendings hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment? There is no one size fits all, in the audio realm or any other. When you can notice the difference in sound very easily, it is quite simple as I stated. At the end of the day, measurements are meaningless as like speakers, you are likely going to keep the ones that sound the best to you (and should be your goal).

Why would my "brain" "think" something is happening that is not? The device is called our ears, and we all hear different. Hence why I could think something sounds great and you would disagree. For example, my Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 looked way better than my Topping E50, had more inputs, was rackmountable, much cooler. Yet, it did not sound as good as my E50 did. Guess which one I kept and which one I sold?

My cognitive dissonance is just fine, thanks though.

You don't test blind to beat the test.

You use it to learn the truth using ears only.

 

[preload]

I will go where I choose to go and I do not have to agree with the masses to exist anywhere. You asked, I answered. ABX tests have been "beaten" before and I have "beaten" them myself. I am also on Reddit, another place where you get with the masses or get voted out, but I do not always agree with the nonsense there, either!

Great! Why don't we just settle this nonsense definitively. Certainly if you agree that DACs are not transparent, then you should have absolutely no problem hearing the difference if 8 DACs and ADCs are inserted into the recording chain, right? Would you like to take the test at home privately using your own music? Should be really fast since the difference should be obvious, right?

 

[voodooless]

Why would my "brain" "think" something is happening that is not?

Is that really a question? There are mountains of science on this in all kinds of disciplines, not just audio. Mandela effect?

The device is called our ears, and we all hear different.

The ears are not the problem, the brain is. Not just your ears plug into that, but also a few million other sensory inputs. You have no idea which one of them makes you reach to preferences.

 

[Archon43]

You guys are arguing nothing, really. I know what the ABX tests are all about, in fact I had a discussion with Arny over at AVS Forums who was one of the engineers who designed them. I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have 4 audio interfaces and 11 DACS in my house right now. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

Do I know it all, of course not but neither does anyone here and many parrot off the others and what they feel. Disgaree with me all you want, but attacking my character is childish and expected. You are quoting things you heard or believe, yet not proving to me I am wrong.

I am more than happy to elaborate, but keep the childish insults for places like Reddit. There is not much in this world that is not debatable and yes, I think ABX tests are a waste of time and useless. Prove me wrong, you cannot because there is no wrong or right. ABX tests are science, but flawed in execution and I already stated why I feel that way. Yes, it is my "feeling" but they have also been proven to be inaccurate and the better component got picked by everyone in some, most in others. With the level matching, you are hampering one (which is likely the better component) to the other and taking away advantages. Are you going to then take the "level matched" component, hook it back up, and keep it at that level? Oops, you just undid the test you performed, correct? Or am I missing something?

With an ABX test, my dad's $100.00 "5000 watt" Pyle receiver should sound the same as my $1500 Marantz. But when used to full potential, the difference is quite there!

 

[Blumlein 88]

You guys are arguing nothing, really. I know what the ABX tests are all about, in fact I had a discussion with Arny over at AVS Forums who was one of the engineers who designed them. I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have 4 audio interfaces and 11 DACS in my house right now. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

Do I know it all, of course not but neither does anyone here and many parrot off the others and what they feel. Disgaree with me all you want, but attacking my character is childish and expected. You are quoting things you heard or believe, yet not proving to me I am wrong.

I am more than happy to elaborate, but keep the childish insults for places like Reddit. There is not much in this world that is not debatable and yes, I think ABX tests are a waste of time and useless. Prove me wrong, you cannot because there is no wrong or right.

If there's no wrong or right, how can blind abx tests be wrong??

 

[voodooless]

If there's no wrong or right, how can blind abx tests be wrong??

They don’t confirm the wanted conclusion…

 

[solderdude]

Look at measurements, they all measure different. Maybe not drastically, but very few measure identical.

Not a single one measures identical, often not even between L and R channels.
Does this mean they also sound different ?
Is there such a thing as audibility thresholds ?

They all have different chips which makeup the whole unit.

Not quite, there are quite a lot of different DAC models and brands using the exact same brand/type DAC chip.

The output, the converters, the DAC itself, the voltage of the outputs, the noise floor (to name a few).

Yes, most are definitely not the same and often the, by the DAC chip manufacturer suggested circuit is not copied 1:1 for various reasons.

They all have different filters, some built into the DAC itself and some implemented by the manufacturer.

Yes, filters differ and can lead to a different sound, certainly for younger folks while playing 44.1kHz files.

They all have power supplies of varying quality, most with the computer-type are going to be better than the AC adapter type.

I think you are over-estimating the whole power supply thing. What is far more important is PCB design, component choice and power rail decoupling and designing using parts with a high PSRR.

Technology evolves, hence why even cheaper DACS are performance monsters where as before cheaper DACS measured terrible. Now you can buy $100 DACS that can outperform sound cards and older DACS by margins.

Very true. Sometimes it goes the other way as well and newer cheaper stuff does not perform as well.

 

[DonR]

You guys are arguing nothing, really. I know what the ABX tests are all about, in fact I had a discussion with Arny over at AVS Forums who was one of the engineers who designed them. I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have 4 audio interfaces and 11 DACS in my house right now. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

Do I know it all, of course not but neither does anyone here and many parrot off the others and what they feel. Disgaree with me all you want, but attacking my character is childish and expected. You are quoting things you heard or believe, yet not proving to me I am wrong.

I am more than happy to elaborate, but keep the childish insults for places like Reddit. There is not much in this world that is not debatable and yes, I think ABX tests are a waste of time and useless. Prove me wrong, you cannot because there is no wrong or right. ABX tests are science, but flawed in execution and I already stated why I feel that way. Yes, it is my "feeling" but they have also been proven to be inaccurate and the better component got picked by everyone in some, most in others. With the level matching, you are hampering one (which is likely the better component) to the other and taking away advantages.

If you are unaware of cognitive bias and its role in how our senses perceive the world I am afraid there is nothing I can help you with. Nobody has insulted you, only asking questions.

 

[preload]

You guys are arguing nothing, really. I know what the ABX tests are all about, in fact I had a discussion with Arny over at AVS Forums who was one of the engineers who designed them. I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have 4 audio interfaces and 11 DACS in my house right now. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

Do I know it all, of course not but neither does anyone here and many parrot off the others and what they feel. Disgaree with me all you want, but attacking my character is childish and expected. You are quoting things you heard or believe, yet not proving to me I am wrong.

I am more than happy to elaborate, but keep the childish insults for places like Reddit. There is not much in this world that is not debatable and yes, I think ABX tests are a waste of time and useless.

I interpret scientific research as part of my day job, and I happen to think the ABX experiment where 8 DACs and 8 ADCs were inserted into the signal chain and compared against 1 DAC was pretty compelling.

Can you explain why you feel that such an experiment would not be a valid test of your stated hypothesis that DACs have large, easily-identifiable, audible differences?

 

[oleg87]

I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

As have I, and I "hear" clear differences in sighted tests I cannot reliably discern in blind tests, even when they're carefully level matched (and of course when they're not, all bets are off). This suggests to me that I'm imagining these differences. If you think your brain is wired differently, that's between you and your gear, but I hope you understand why I don't think your methodology is remotely adequate.

 

[Archon43]

You keep talking about "wanted conclusions". I wish I can buy a $50.00 Chinese Dac and $100.00 Pyle receiver and enjoy audio nirvana! That would be "expectation bias", yet none are stupid enough to know that to be the case. I buy for the best performance I can get, no one bias to be had. If it's cooler but does not perform as well as what I have, it gets sold, goes to my family/friends, gets returned, or put in another system which is not as resolving. My parents, wife, and daughter all have previous DACS I have used in their systems due to this.

I never said all DACS sound different, but power supply can make a huge difference! My Topping E50 sounded good with the USB power from my computer, better with the Ifi power supply, and best with the 33 watt/low noise phone charger I am currently using. Dynamics and sound stage improved with each "stage". It did not take it to another world, but it did change the sound. My expectation was to keep it hooked up to the computer so I did not have to pay more money for the same goal!

Most DACS with built in power supplies (computer-like) will sound better than ones that implement AC power. This is why some prefer SMSL to Topping DACS of the same class, Topping tends to stick more to AC adapters. A Linear power supply will sometimes bring this to parity.

 

[zajogungster]

Ako máme oddeliť to, čo sa skutočne deje, od toho, čo si váš mozog myslí, že sa deje? Všetky tieto rozdiely sa dali ľahko zistiť pri meraní a mali by sa prejaviť vo výsledkoch silných slepých testov.

You guys are arguing nothing, really. I know what the ABX tests are all about, in fact I had a discussion with Arny over at AVS Forums who was one of the engineers who designed them. I have been around this stuff a long time and owned enough equipment. I have 4 audio interfaces and 11 DACS in my house right now. I have put in the work and tried many different systems in my rooms.

Do I know it all, of course not but neither does anyone here and many parrot off the others and what they feel. Disgaree with me all you want, but attacking my character is childish and expected. You are quoting things you heard or believe, yet not proving to me I am wrong.

I am more than happy to elaborate, but keep the childish insults for places like Reddit. There is not much in this world that is not debatable and yes, I think ABX tests are a waste of time and useless. Prove me wrong, you cannot because there is no wrong or right. ABX tests are science, but flawed in execution and I already stated why I feel that way. Yes, it is my "feeling" but they have also been proven to be inaccurate and the better component got picked by everyone in some, most in others. With the level matching, you are hampering one (which is likely the better component) to the other and taking away advantages. Are you going to then take the "level matched" component, hook it back up, and keep it at that level? Oops, you just undid the test you performed, correct? Or am I missing something?

With an ABX test, my dad's $100.00 "5000 watt" Pyle receiver should sound the same as my $1500 Marantz. But when used to full potential, the difference is quite there!

it's hard to just read, not to join the discussion in a constructive way.
One thing is certain, the degree of self-reflection and self-knowledge is often lacking here (by the main contributors) and it is often possible to find something like extremism on this or other forums... that is, it is always different, even if it is as he wrote "last time in another thread" today it is necessarily different because he would probably have to agree and what do such people really care about? Nothing, you are just here ... your ego, through some science that I don't even understand.
Actually, there is no point in reacting to them, they are not useful for what is important! to look for better options, to enjoy music better! then I'm spouting nonsense like there's nothing and shouldn't be heard when the numbers show the same values. But they themselves know very well what the difference is in the tenth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Archon43]

As have I, and I "hear" clear differences in sighted tests I cannot reliably discern in blind tests, even when they're carefully level matched (and of course when they're not, all bets are off). This suggests to me that I'm imagining these differences. If you think your brain is wired differently, that's between you and your gear, but I hope you understand why I don't think your methodology is remotely adequate.

I do not care if you disagree, I explained myself quite well and I find your conclusions not remotely adequate. Now what?

 

[zajogungster]

You keep talking about "wanted conclusions". I wish I can buy a $50.00 Chinese Dac and $100.00 Pyle receiver and enjoy audio nirvana! That would be "expectation bias", yet none are stupid enough to know that to be the case. I buy for the best performance I can get, no one bias to be had. If it's cooler but does not perform as well as what I have, it gets sold, goes to my family/friends, gets returned, or put in another system which is not as resolving. My parents, wife, and daughter all have previous DACS I have used in their systems due to this.

I never said all DACS sound different, but power supply can make a huge difference! My Topping E50 sounded good with the USB power from my computer, better with the Ifi power supply, and best with the 33 watt/low noise phone charger I am currently using. Dynamics and sound stage improved with each "stage". It did not take it to another world, but it did change the sound. My expectation was to keep it hooked up to the computer so I did not have to pay more money for the same goal!

Most DACS with built in power supplies (computer-like) will sound better than ones that implement AC power. This is why some prefer SMSL to Topping DACS of the same class, Topping tends to stick more to AC adapters. A Linear power supply will sometimes bring this to parity.

I hope that the translator translates it quite clearly and doesn't send someone something that I meant differently and I agree with almost everything you write..

 

[DonR]

it's hard to just read, not to join the discussion in a constructive way.
One thing is certain, the degree of self-reflection and self-knowledge is often lacking here (by the main contributors) and it is often possible to find something like extremism on this or other forums... that is, it is always different, even if it is as he wrote "last time in another thread" today it is necessarily different because he would probably have to agree and what do such people really care about? Nothing, you are just here ... your ego, through some science that I don't even understand.
Actually, there is no point in reacting to them, they are not useful for what is important! to look for better options, to enjoy music better! then I'm spouting nonsense like there's nothing and shouldn't be heard when the numbers show the same values. But they themselves know very well what the difference is in the tenth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I don't understand what you are saying and why did translate what I said into a foreign language?

 

[oleg87]

You keep talking about "wanted conclusions". I wish I can buy a $50.00 Chinese Dac and $100.00 Pyle receiver and enjoy audio nirvana! That would be "expectation bias", yet none are stupid enough to know that to be the case.

LOL, do you actually think this is how bias works?

 

[Killingbeans]

Level matching to make it "fair" (which I have done with a voltmeter and calibrated SPL meter plus Umik-2 mic, also calibrated) is hampering one to equal the output of another.

Simple solution: Instead of "hampering" the one with higher output voltage, let it shine and boost the other with a preamp

 

[zajogungster]

I don't understand what you are saying and why did translate what I said into a foreign language?

sorry, I didn't notice, the auto translater is playing pranks and the reverse translation does more damage