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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

Angsty

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It's possible that post-filtering components after the DAC could have an effect on sound if poorly designed.
I made an assumption above that we were talking about the differences between various filtering algorithms. When you go without an algorithm (e.g. NOS), you simply get a crappy result.

 

Jimster480

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I think that the overall "sound signature" typically depends on the op amps that are used along with the DAC, either that or the filters.
I can tell you that I have DAC's from various brands and all the DAC's which measure really well are near impossible to tell the difference between. I CAN tell the difference, but not in any specific test unless I find one.
For example; I can listen to music all day on either DAC and it sounds the same.... however every once in a while in a specific song or sound situation (in games or movies) where one DAC sounds SLIGHTLY different than another DAC. I have found a few bits of these scenarios over the years and have then tested back and forth between 2 DAC's to confirm that they do indeed sound different with this specific sound in this specific movie or live TV show (usually was in basketball or the olympics) or in a video game.
However it is typically where one sound is clearer and the other might be slightly deformed. However I can only tell this difference from literally years of listening to multiple different DAC's on different systems at a regular interval so I guess my brain has a sound "match" for specific sounds in specific scenarios.

So the takeaway here is that; it doesn't really matter. Once you have DAC's that measure well; they basically all sound the same even if there are minor differences.

The other thing that can happen with certain DAC's that have filter options; certain filters can sound slightly different in specific types of music depending on certain frequency peaks....

However if you have poorly measuring DAC's they can definitely sound different/be picked out apart. This is part of how I found this site; after buying a Modi Multibit years ago and hearing that it sounded worse than my FiiO K1 and much worse than my SMSL M8... In the end I was banned from Headfi for talking about these differences and sought out a site that could put what I heard into some form of a chart. I'm glad to have found this site and Amir and the rest is history.

Today most of the DAC's perform so well; I doubt anyone can tell them apart without hundreds of hours of listening to each one and happening upon the minor differences in each one which might not even exist now with so many units hitting 120db SINAD. Most of the products I was speaking about above have 90-108db SINAD (other than the Modi Multibit & Fulla2 which both are documented here).
 

Jim Shaw

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@Jimster480 You are aware that you are putting forth an argument that you have developed a special discriminatory hearing power. Not to be unkind, but have you ever done a proper fully blinded, multiple trial, level matched listening tests of your assumptions?
It's easy to agree. The human ear/brain/sensory process can change from one instant to the next. As prey/predator animals, humans have developed a highly variable sense of hearing attention. Once in effect, we strongly tend to listen for something. Imagine: You are camping in a forest meadow, reading a book in the sunlight. Your imagination is fully committed to the tale when you hear a twig break somewhere behind you. Suddenly, your senses are recommitted to determining the cause and distance of the snap. It is much the same with music listening. You listen along, then you think you hear something wrong. Suddenly your entire perception is redirected toward identifying what is wrong or different. When changing hifi components, you are sharply attuned to minute differences. Voila! You hear minutia.

Glass half empty versus glass half full:

As a human, you are poorly wired to hear similarities: you listen for something different. Most 'audiophiles' seem highly attuned to finding something wrong with what we're hearing -- not so much what is right. It is hard-wired behavior that we have developed to a very sharp point -- and to the disadvantage of our wallets and our contentment.

It is for this reason that I propose that some few of us acknowledge this. Instead of working toward perfection, we instead look to avoid annoyances that trigger our diversion away from music, to identify the bad, and look to the good. Thus, I believe that we preach annoyance avoidance rather than perfection.
This is what measurements tend to do.


From my perspective, this is how recordings are produced. The perfect recording doesn't exist and never did. But reducing annoyances will get the studio a lot more business.

-Just one man's view.
 
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ahofer

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Thus, I believe that we preach annoyance avoidance rather than perfection
Agree. I tried, in my last round of auditioning speakers, to simply play through my whole playlist and decide if I wanted to keep listening.
 

Phrangko

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I think that the overall "sound signature" typically depends on the op amps that are used along with the DAC, either that or the filters.
I can tell you that I have DAC's from various brands and all the DAC's which measure really well are near impossible to tell the difference between. I CAN tell the difference, but not in any specific test unless I find one.
For example; I can listen to music all day on either DAC and it sounds the same.... however every once in a while in a specific song or sound situation (in games or movies) where one DAC sounds SLIGHTLY different than another DAC. I have found a few bits of these scenarios over the years and have then tested back and forth between 2 DAC's to confirm that they do indeed sound different with this specific sound in this specific movie or live TV show (usually was in basketball or the olympics) or in a video game.
However it is typically where one sound is clearer and the other might be slightly deformed. However I can only tell this difference from literally years of listening to multiple different DAC's on different systems at a regular interval so I guess my brain has a sound "match" for specific sounds in specific scenarios.

So the takeaway here is that; it doesn't really matter. Once you have DAC's that measure well; they basically all sound the same even if there are minor differences.

The other thing that can happen with certain DAC's that have filter options; certain filters can sound slightly different in specific types of music depending on certain frequency peaks....

However if you have poorly measuring DAC's they can definitely sound different/be picked out apart. This is part of how I found this site; after buying a Modi Multibit years ago and hearing that it sounded worse than my FiiO K1 and much worse than my SMSL M8... In the end I was banned from Headfi for talking about these differences and sought out a site that could put what I heard into some form of a chart. I'm glad to have found this site and Amir and the rest is history.

Today most of the DAC's perform so well; I doubt anyone can tell them apart without hundreds of hours of listening to each one and happening upon the minor differences in each one which might not even exist now with so many units hitting 120db SINAD. Most of the products I was speaking about above have 90-108db SINAD (other than the Modi Multibit & Fulla2 which both are documented here).
I agree that DACs differences in SQ is miniscule no matter the price. I switched from a Topping DAC to RME and I can say the money is not worth it. Unless perhaps you have in a chain a powerful amp and a riot preamp. But then it's not the DAC. Subtle differences are a pain in the pocket mind you.
 

majingotan

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I agree that DACs differences in SQ is miniscule no matter the price. I switched from a Topping DAC to RME and I can say the money is not worth it. Unless perhaps you have in a chain a powerful amp and a riot preamp. But then it's not the DAC. Subtle differences are a pain in the pocket mind you.

You have to get something like a Lampizator DAC to truly hear a difference (it has a tube analog stage duh). Both RME and the Topping DAC have beyond audibility measurements while the Lampizator would definitely be in 30-50 dB SINAD range which would be more noticeable of course. Then again, this is a broken design from the get go as far as what a DAC is supposed to do

gg3.jpg
 

tiramisu

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So does it become science when you observe the 2-slit experiment? I can't come to terms with it but I have seen it. Audio is less convincing to the human mind. I don't know why this is the case. I can't tell the difference between inaudible sounds.
 

Piere

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After now 176 pages still no progress in getting a glimpse of an answer in this serious matter :)

Audio as a hobby has, as many other things in life, 2 main aspects: A rational one and an emotional one. Although they are definitely 2 completely different things, they are often mixed up or even interchanged. IMHO part of the art of life is to let both parts work in harmony. so 1+1 can become 3. Unfortunately, quite often they don't work together or counteract each other and 1+1 stays 1 or even level each out.

IMHO both parts are playing their role in the threshold of perceiving differences. On the rational side we have the magic 120dB number, great! We can write it down. But on the emotional side there will be never a number we can write down.
 

digicidal

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So does it become science when you observe the 2-slit experiment? I can't come to terms with it but I have seen it. Audio is less convincing to the human mind. I don't know why this is the case. I can't tell the difference between inaudible sounds.
I tend toward a exclusionary view on audio as well - if it involves a human as any part of the "testing" then it's already left the realm of science.

Honestly, while I appreciate having objective measurements to confirm transparency - much of what ASR does as far as DACs are concerned is pointless IMO. However, I think the subjective concept of listening to DACs and coming up with apparent differences, is even more pointless.

At this point a DAC is basically the same as a clock (not a signal clock... just a regular one). You should pick the features, appearance, and budget and just enjoy the music from then on. Although the difference in error rates between an atomic clock and a $5 wall clock are very statistically significant... they are both much more accurate than our brains or a sundial. Even if one is only off 1 second in a few million years and the other one loses that much every hour... the only truly important thing is whatever you needed to do at a specific time - not the thing you used to determine that time.

So if you have music you love listening to... I'm quite sure you'll enjoy it on basically anything. On the other hand, if you're obsessed with gear... there will be something wrong with every signal chain you get close to... even if it's powered off at the time. :p
 

Jimbob54

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After now 176 pages still no progress in getting a glimpse of an answer in this serious matter :)

Audio as a hobby has, as many other things in life, 2 main aspects: A rational one and an emotional one. Although they are definitely 2 completely different things,
I think the answer for most people on here was very definitely given in the first page or 2

Ill summarise:

Part A- most dont if they are working correctly
Part B - Yes

Save your emotional response for the music played through the DAC, not what you perceive the DAC is doing to it.
 

Goodman

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I agree that DACs differences in SQ is miniscule no matter the price. I switched from a Topping DAC to RME and I can say the money is not worth it. Unless perhaps you have in a chain a powerful amp and a riot preamp. But then it's not the DAC. Subtle differences are a pain in the pocket mind you.
I also have a topping and a RME dac, I agree that if you are just converting, you can't hear the difference, however the RME has lots of dsp fonctions, equalyser, good preamp function etc. and in my opinion well worth the money, which is a very rare quality in the so called audiophile world.
 

egellings

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If you like the look & sound of it, then for you it's not broken. If you want to do delicate laboratory grade measurements using it, then Houston, we have a problem. My personal preference would be to have the DAC part and the tube part on separate chasses. That way I could use the tube part as a line stage for other sources as well.
 
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Jimster480

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@Jimster480 You are aware that you are putting forth an argument that you have developed a special discriminatory hearing power. Not to be unkind, but have you ever done a proper fully blinded, multiple trial, level matched listening tests of your assumptions?
Maybe you didn't read my whole post. Maybe you are just trying to troll, I am not sure which one it is.
I have done different tests to confirm what I have heard and so far my own personal tests have reflected Amirs objective testing results on each product I have sent him for testing. Which at this point in time I think is around 8 different products.
As mentioned in my original post; once you have a competent DAC it literally doesn't matter as the differences are typically so minor that you wouldn't notice them. My situation is different than most as I had multiple different DACs setup in different places and listened to each setup for hours on a regular basis.
Now here in my new house; I have only one setup presently as my workflow has changed and I don't sit at multiple desks in multiple places for long periods of time depending on the days. Partly because my kids are older but also because I physically moved houses twice since I started in this scene.
So my new house which I have been moving into this year has 3 desks, but 2 desks are next to each other and I can use the same setup if it really matters.... .my older Topping D30 DAC only drives a set of speakers on my "gaming desktop" now and my 3rd desk which is in my master bedroom contains no audio setup presently (and may never, since I won't ever spend much time there).
My workstation has my primary stack; which as of today still sits with a THX AAA 789 Amp & a Topping DX7. The DX7 provides around 108 SINAD and this has been good enough that I haven't been able to tell the differences with any "better" DACs that were loaned to me. It doesn't mean though that if I were to purchase something with 120 SINAD and listen to both every day for a year or so; that I wouldn't be able to ever detect a difference in any content ever.... I can't say one way or the other because I haven't done it. However as my original post mentioned; once DAC's have this level of performance the differences are basically impossible to tell once volume is matched because noise levels are too low.
Considering that today such DACs can be had for $99; which definitely wasn't the case 5 years ago. The DAC issue should be mostly squashed and only really come down to looks, features, inputs, convenience, etc rather than technical performance (although it is still important that we measure these new devices to make sure that performance doesn't start to slip).
 

Jimster480

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It's easy to agree. The human ear/brain/sensory process can change from one instant to the next. As prey/predator animals, humans have developed a highly variable sense of hearing attention. Once in effect, we strongly tend to listen for something. Imagine: You are camping in a forest meadow, reading a book in the sunlight. Your imagination is fully committed to the tale when you hear a twig break somewhere behind you. Suddenly, your senses are recommitted to determining the cause and distance of the snap. It is much the same with music listening. You listen along, then you think you hear something wrong. Suddenly your entire perception is redirected toward identifying what is wrong or different. When changing hifi components, you are sharply attuned to minute differences. Voila! You hear minutia.

Glass half empty versus glass half full:

As a human, you are poorly wired to hear similarities: you listen for something different. Most 'audiophiles' seem highly attuned to finding something wrong with what we're hearing -- not so much what is right. It is hard-wired behavior that we have developed to a very sharp point -- and to the disadvantage of our wallets and our contentment.

It is for this reason that I propose that some few of us acknowledge this. Instead of working toward perfection, we instead look to avoid annoyances that trigger our diversion away from music, to identify the bad, and look to the good. Thus, I believe that we preach annoyance avoidance rather than perfection.
This is what measurements tend to do.


From my perspective, this is how recordings are produced. The perfect recording doesn't exist and never did. But reducing annoyances will get the studio a lot more business.

-Just one man's view.
I totally agree here! Some of my audiophile friends don't seem to understand how I am perfectly satisfied with the same stack for years. How I listen to the same sets of components every day and I am just happy with them. But honestly because I am not trying to find something wrong with what I hear; the "annoyances" are gone with my current setup and unless something breaks (sadly I broke my USB input on my DX7 and the screen is fading) I don't think I will replace it.
My recent pairing of my Hivi Swan M10 w/ the Topping D30 DAC on my new "gaming / family PC" is a welcome upgrade from how these speakers were connected in my old house (line out on TV) and as such I think the D30 is more than capable of extracting the full performance out of these speakers.

I see music / audio similar in a way to video; once it reaches a good enough quality where you don't notice what is or could be wrong then there is no need to upgrade it again. I have a Sony Master A8H as my main TV paired with some Klipsch R-15PM & K100SW sub and using the TV as the "center channel" makes for a nice experience. Now here in my new house I will try to build a proper surround sound setup (since it wasn't possible in the old house) some day in the future.
Since I test products as one of my ventures these days; I have tested enough sound bars, speakers and other audio devices to have established a good "limit" of what "sounds good" vs technical perfection and how much that really is worth, at least in my book.
I think as a society we are driven by rabid consumerism and many people are always looking to buy the next thing just because we have had something else for a while. Rather than look to upgrade other aspects of our lives and spend money wisely when meaningful upgrades (especailly those that will improve quality of life) are able to be had for reasonable prices.

I am very proud of the great work that has done here at ASR by Amir and the contributing members who continue to enrich the audio world. When I joined this forum; technical excellence in DACs and Amps was expensive and mostly guesswork, with tons of products all claiming the same thing and no benchmark of what is actually good. Subjective marketing dominated this scene entirely and companies like Schiit were massive profiteers of poor performance and nice "stories" rather than technical excellence.
Fast Forward 4 years and technical excellence can be had for only a couple hundred dollars (or sometimes less). With amazing amp performance to boot and even Schiit sells very competent hardware now for very affordable prices.
Companies like JDS Labs no longer live in the shadows and once small time chinese companies now compete (or beat) the big names who have become lazy. Those who offer less than top tier performance for huge prices while other major names have defended their brands. With some putting up respectable performance on this proverbial battleground of benchmarks that has been created here.
 

Piere

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I think the answer for most people on here was very definitely given in the first page or 2

Ill summarise:

Part A- most dont if they are working correctly
Part B - Yes

Save your emotional response for the music played through the DAC, not what you perceive the DAC is doing to it.
Duh........? No need to go personal IMHO ???
 

Jimbob54

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Duh........? No need to go personal IMHO ???
You misunderstand

"Audio as a hobby has, as many other things in life, 2 main aspects: A rational one and an emotional one. Although they are definitely 2 completely different things,"

That's the emotional response I'm referring to. People should have emotions about the music, not the kit it's played on.. What is personal about that?
 

Ken1951

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People should have emotions about the music, not the kit it's played on
This. This is truth. One of the latest songs I'm in love with is Paradise by Anderson Rocio. Whether it comes on in the car or on either of the two systems in the house, I am truly moved. I realize this is antithetical to the whole "audiophile" construct. But I care not.
 

A Surfer

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Maybe you didn't read my whole post. Maybe you are just trying to troll, I am not sure which one it is.
I have done different tests to confirm what I have heard and so far my own personal tests have reflected Amirs objective testing results on each product I have sent him for testing. Which at this point in time I think is around 8 different products.
As mentioned in my original post; once you have a competent DAC it literally doesn't matter as the differences are typically so minor that you wouldn't notice them. My situation is different than most as I had multiple different DACs setup in different places and listened to each setup for hours on a regular basis.
Now here in my new house; I have only one setup presently as my workflow has changed and I don't sit at multiple desks in multiple places for long periods of time depending on the days. Partly because my kids are older but also because I physically moved houses twice since I started in this scene.
So my new house which I have been moving into this year has 3 desks, but 2 desks are next to each other and I can use the same setup if it really matters.... .my older Topping D30 DAC only drives a set of speakers on my "gaming desktop" now and my 3rd desk which is in my master bedroom contains no audio setup presently (and may never, since I won't ever spend much time there).
My workstation has my primary stack; which as of today still sits with a THX AAA 789 Amp & a Topping DX7. The DX7 provides around 108 SINAD and this has been good enough that I haven't been able to tell the differences with any "better" DACs that were loaned to me. It doesn't mean though that if I were to purchase something with 120 SINAD and listen to both every day for a year or so; that I wouldn't be able to ever detect a difference in any content ever.... I can't say one way or the other because I haven't done it. However as my original post mentioned; once DAC's have this level of performance the differences are basically impossible to tell once volume is matched because noise levels are too low.
Considering that today such DACs can be had for $99; which definitely wasn't the case 5 years ago. The DAC issue should be mostly squashed and only really come down to looks, features, inputs, convenience, etc rather than technical performance (although it is still important that we measure these new devices to make sure that performance doesn't start to slip).
Ok, even implying I'm trolling is just ridiculous, regardless of what I may have missed or not.
 

audio_tony

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I think that the overall "sound signature" typically depends on the op amps that are used along with the DAC, either that or the filters.
I may be wrong, but I have an idea that your comment about opamps may have been a trigger for at least one of the responses you received.

For one opamp to sound different to another in the same circuit implies something is amiss, and this is usually instability which can give the impression the opamp sounds different.

I agree that the filter employed can influence the sound, and indeed I believe that some manufacturers tailor the filter to yield their 'house sound' (i.e. not neutral).
 
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