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Sergeants, Lieutenants, Audio Militia?

kemmler3D

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You need to be so careful with statements like this - yes placebo can improve how someone feels. But try homeopathy against cancer, or other serious disease, including mental illness, and you'll find out pretty quickly how valuable placebo isn't.


Well I hope sugar works just as good as novocoin for you with a dental root canal treatment

Pain is just in the brain, it not realy exists. ;)

Indeed, I obviously don't mean to imply placebo effects any cures for diseases that are totally unresponsive to signals from the brain. But placebo is consistently found to be effective in situations where the brain is involved: https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect . But placebo effect cannot heal a broken leg or make a tumor disappear if it wasn't going to anyway. If the mind/brain can't cure a given disease then neither can a sugar pill. Let's be clear on that.

Still, it's an important concept in audio, or any field in which subjective experience is important. There are studies that show placebo effect works even if you know it's a placebo. Consider what that implies for audio. We may hear improvements even if we know the device in question is snake oil or unlikely to create an audible improvement. Can you hear the difference between 94dB SINAD and 104? The answer is probably "no"...

The placebo works in part because you're taking an action (eating a pill) which resembles the action you take for real medicine.

In the audio world, plugging in snake oil gear is the same physical action as plugging in high-performing gear that causes audible improvements. The physical action primes us to expect (and often actually experience) a subjective improvement regardless of what was plugged in.

The placebo effect in medicine is not just an analogy for what happens in audio, IMO it's the same exact phenomenon.

What is less commonly discussed is nocebo effect. This is where the 'sugar pill' makes our experience worse. I once saw someone leave a bad review on a homeopathic pill... they said it caused a terrible allergic reaction. Okay. An allergic reaction to nothing? It's a bit sad because they spent money on a fake cure and instead contracted a fake disease...

Consider the analogy to golden ears and Class D amps sounding "lifeless" or "harsh"... ;)
 

Waxx

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Indeed, I obviously don't mean to imply placebo effects any cures for diseases that are totally unresponsive to signals from the brain. But placebo is consistently found to be effective in situations where the brain is involved: https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect . But placebo effect cannot heal a broken leg or make a tumor disappear if it wasn't going to anyway. If the mind/brain can't cure a given disease then neither can a sugar pill. Let's be clear on that.

Still, it's an important concept in audio, or any field in which subjective experience is important. There are studies that show placebo effect works even if you know it's a placebo. Consider what that implies for audio. We may hear improvements even if we know the device in question is snake oil or unlikely to create an audible improvement. Can you hear the difference between 94dB SINAD and 104? The answer is probably "no"...

The placebo works in part because you're taking an action (eating a pill) which resembles the action you take for real medicine.

In the audio world, plugging in snake oil gear is the same physical action as plugging in high-performing gear that causes audible improvements. The physical action primes us to expect (and often actually experience) a subjective improvement regardless of what was plugged in.

The placebo effect in medicine is not just an analogy for what happens in audio, IMO it's the same exact phenomenon.

What is less commonly discussed is nocebo effect. This is where the 'sugar pill' makes our experience worse. I once saw someone leave a bad review on a homeopathic pill... they said it caused a terrible allergic reaction. Okay. An allergic reaction to nothing? It's a bit sad because they spent money on a fake cure and instead contracted a fake disease...

Consider the analogy to golden ears and Class D amps sounding "lifeless" or "harsh"... ;)
The thing, is a class D amp sounds different than a class A or AB or tube amp (that also have their own sound). Some like it others not and wants the harmonic distortion other types give. And class D harshness was mainly due to early designs that still had issues with the switching of the psu and the amp that was not well filtered or to low in frequency so it had an influence on the sound. Modern designs don't sound harsh, but sometimes sound sterile and lifeless to many.

Harmonic distortion and low damping factor may not be true to the source, but are often loved as "enchangment" of the sound that brings more enjoyment to certain listeners, and seen as a distortion (which it off course is technically) of the signal to others wich bothers them. And what you like is a personal preference, not an objective absolute rule that applies to everybody like some see it here.

While real snake oil stuff (like the fancy cables and so) do nothing at all in most cases, and are more like homeopathy, a placebo effect.
 

antcollinet

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The thing, is a class D amp sounds different than a class A or AB or tube amp (that also have their own sound). Some like it others not and wants the harmonic distortion other types give. And class D harshness was mainly due to early designs that still had issues with the switching of the psu and the amp that was not well filtered or to low in frequency so it had an influence on the sound. Modern designs don't sound harsh, but sometimes sound sterile and lifeless to many.

Harmonic distortion and low damping factor may not be true to the source, but are often loved as "enchangment" of the sound that brings more enjoyment to certain listeners, and seen as a distortion (which it off course is technically) of the signal to others wich bothers them. And what you like is a personal preference, not an objective absolute rule that applies to everybody like some see it here.

While real snake oil stuff (like the fancy cables and so) do nothing at all in most cases, and are more like homeopathy, a placebo effect.
Well designed amps of whatever type don't have a sound. It is certainly not possible to generalise about a sound between the different classes of amp.
 

Waxx

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Well designed amps of whatever type don't have a sound. It is certainly not possible to generalise about a sound between the different classes of amp.
that answer is a perfect example of what i ment above with this sentence
And what you like is a personal preference, not an objective absolute rule that applies to everybody like some see it here.
Many amps are build to have a sound because the customers want that sound. A perfect example is many of the Nelson Pass designs, that are deliberate coloured (he says it himself). Idem with SET and many (not all) PP tube amps. People spend money on them (and they are mostly not cheap) to have the coloured sound, not to have a neutral amp. And as long as you refuse to see that preference (that is not strictly hifi in the classic sense of the word), you will have these endless discussions about it that go nowhere...
 

antcollinet

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that answer is a perfect example of what i ment above with this sentence

Many amps are build to have a sound because the customers want that sound. A perfect example is many of the Nelson Pass designs, that are deliberate coloured (he says it himself). Idem with SET and many (not all) PP tube amps. People spend money on them (and they are mostly not cheap) to have the coloured sound, not to have a neutral amp. And as long as you refuse to see that preference (that is not strictly hifi in the classic sense of the word), you will have these endless discussions about it that go nowhere...
I recognise the preference. But (by my definition at least) amp designs pandering to that preference are not well designed. Further - it is possible to design such pandering amps in all classes.
 

Vacceo

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that answer is a perfect example of what i ment above with this sentence

Many amps are build to have a sound because the customers want that sound. A perfect example is many of the Nelson Pass designs, that are deliberate coloured (he says it himself). Idem with SET and many (not all) PP tube amps. People spend money on them (and they are mostly not cheap) to have the coloured sound, not to have a neutral amp. And as long as you refuse to see that preference (that is not strictly hifi in the classic sense of the word), you will have these endless discussions about it that go nowhere...
EQ is cheaper than those space heaters, both in terms of hardware and electrical consumption.
 

fordiebianco

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We (as ASR) are the victims of our own success. We tear inadequate stuff apart regardless of the provenance, and shatter long held illusions. I've been accused on other forums of killing all the fun when pointing out the absurdities of others' positions, ASR does it on a rather grander scale, so more power to us.

S.

Amen, Brother.

Whakaaio.
 

egellings

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Milliohm meters source a relatively large test current and 4-wire Kelvin connection is mandatory if any kind of valid measurement is to be made at all.
 
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