Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)

[Degru]

(that's not really the point that was being made)

>94db peak is below normal listening levels
That's mainly what I was addressing, but narrowing down to just that statement it would depend entirely on the kind of music you listen to.

 

[LightninBoy]

There is not one speaker I have measured with distortion this low:

If I drew a line at 50 dB as I do with speakers, everything above 50 Hz would be well below the threshold.

Well, I think we should be comparing distortion to other headphones and not to speakers. The distortion levels here are nothing special in the headphone world - as the comparison to the HD650 distortion demonstrates.

Because our measurements are not as precise and prescriptive as they are for speakers, you can't put as much weight on them as you do with speakers. Wait until we measure more headphones and then a proper picture emerges as to what is good or bad.

Ok, but I can look at literally hundreds of other current headphone measurements right now and see that, in comparison, these are objectively bad.

For now, I noted the issues with objective measurements but noted if EQ is applied, the experience is quite nice.

Yes, you did. Dammit, I always swore to myself I wouldn't be "be that guy" that took issue with one of your subjective ratings. But here I am. Like always, the objective data is there for all to interpret as they like. I just can't square the price of these with the "they sound quite nice if you EQ the *CRAP* out of them" frequency response. Anyways, you liked them enough to recommend, but gave me enough data to decide they aren't for me, so mission accomplished. Looking forward to more headphone reviews.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Yep, even when EQ'ed properly in tonal balance the HD800(S) is simply a step above most other headphones. The imaging and detail retrieval have a sense of realism that the vast majority of headphones simply doesn't reach. I like to call this 'effortless' sound. One of the very few headphones that is even better is the HE-1.
Some TOTL headphones come close (Utopia for instance and some stats) but are pricier than HD800(S).
Perhaps, strange as it seems, the HD800 (no S) with EQ is a budget T.O.T.L. headphone

If you do the EQ correction currently you will lost a lot of these over exaggerated details due to the overemphasis on details in his FR.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Also i found the ether flow have less distortion

 

[Doodski]

Can I get someone to volunteer writing a mini article on all the EQ options available for different OS platforms?

Anybody volunteer for and start a thread for this yet?

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

Have you listened to the two in person? Actually listening to things makes it quite obvious how limited current headphone measurements are in capturing the full characteristics of any given pair.

Agree totally. Sadly, that's also the exact same argument used by some folks trying to say audible differences exist between dacs that measure the same. Which conflicts me somewhat.

 

[YSC]

Thanks.
The HD800 is rather expensive and I could suppose that its owner would somehow have interest in EQ.
But how many "consumers" out there have no clue and listen to HD580, 600, 650 (and other brands, and "99% of HP) just as they are, without EQ ?
The world is strange; definitively.

I think this is a misconception,

1) rich ppl unlike us usually have more things they prefer to put their time on (and that's why they are rich) while when they decide to relax with music they just buy good stuffs and ask someone to set it up properly, sit down and relax

2) With speakers having a universal target of flat on axis they could be more willing to do so, with headphones not so, the preference curve is none the less, preference, and there are diffuse field curve and other target curves out there also, which is wildly different, so who knows what to tune for? bad tuning usually gets worse for experience.

while in the mid-high frequencies the variability is great between different headphones, I somehow remember back when I followed Tyll's measurements all the major players like Focal, Stax, Hifiman, Sennheiser etc. all don't differ in the bass region that much in level, with Sennheiser behind Neumann and Focal is established great speaker manufacturer, I can't convince myself that their bass response target is that much off from perceived neutral and need such wild EQ boost...

 

[maverickronin]

I just can't square the price of these with the "they sound quite nice if you EQ the *CRAP* out of them" frequency response.

You're missing the soundstage, which is the HD800's claim to fame. Its mostly a function of driver size and positioning relative to the outer ear and simple frequency response measurements don't capture this.

It's almost the "directivity" of headphones (at least for circumaurals, it doesn't really exist in supraurals or IEMs) and there's no accepted way to measure it yet. This is kind of like if a speaker review left out the polars or DI curve or something. AFIK the only one who's even trying is RTINGS. I'm not convinced of his specific methods and scoring but he is showing that there is something there to measure.

 

[Newk Yuler]

This is late in the discussion after only one day but I have to briefly mention that I appreciate you, Amir for reminding me of how much I appreciate Cliff Martinez. I did an ASR search to see how many times his name has been mentioned and yours a couple of years ago is the only one. I have a number of his soundtrack CDs including both seasons of The Knick which are excellent (as was the series). I'm going to pull out those albums and listen to them on my Hifiman Arya that also needs an ASR review for its many fans. Cheers.

 

[sam_adams]

Can I get someone to volunteer writing a mini article on all the EQ options available for different OS platforms?

Don't have the time to do a write-up, but to start off the gracious volunteer, systemwide EQ apps for macOS:

Apple AU Lab

eqMac

Boom2 and Boom 3D

AU Lab and eqMac appeal to the DIY cheapskate in all of us as they are free. Boom2/3D are non-free, $14.99US to $24.99US. Boom2/3D works on Windows as well.

 

[esm]

Can I get someone to volunteer writing a mini article on all the EQ options available for different OS platforms?

A good starting point would probably be the AutoEQ usage notes, which cover options for a pretty broad swath of platforms.

 

[laurelkurt]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sennheiser HD 800 S. A very kind member sent these months ago and has been patiently waiting for their review. The HD 800 S costs US $1,700 but I see it on Amazon for US $1,323 including Prime shipping.

The HD800S is at the same time solid but also very light:

View attachment 99381

I was surprised how they just melted on my head the moment I put them on. In contrast I feel the pressure of other headphones for a while until my brain starts to filter it out. The massive cups mean that they fit optimally almost no matter how to throw them on your head or the measurement gear. I did not feel that they were loose but I see some people complaining that the fit my be so.

I like to have a long headphone cord as I move around but then worry about them getting chewed up under my feet. Sennheiser seems to have solved this problem by creating a cord that while very long, feels super robust and doesn't seem to weigh much:
View attachment 99382

The 1/4 inch termination is wonderful. I imaging $50 of the cost went to that! Other than the high cost, I don't know that there is much to complain about here.

The measurements you are about to see are made using a standardized Gras 45C. I searched for any and all measurements I could find online. Alas while a number of them are close to mine, none are using the exact fixture down to coupler and pinna. As you will see, I have confirmed the approximate accuracy of the measurements using Equalization and listening tests. Ultimately headphone measurements are less exact than speakers above a few kilohertz so keep that in mind as you read these tests.

I have calibrated my headphone fixture with 94 dBSPL test tones and decided that I use the same for headphone measurements. However, instead of using 1 kHz tone I have opted for 425 Hz. This seems to better match research data.

I have also made a lot of progress in building a better test suite for the measurements. More updates and changes will be coming but I am starting to feel good about this set.

Sennheiser HD800S Measurements
There is nothing more important than frequency response of the headphone as each is seemingly different and that difference leaves a very distinct character:

View attachment 99383

The dashed line is the target I am after. As we clearly see the HD800S doesn't even maintain its flat response let alone have the preferred bass boost. This will throw off the balance of the headphone and make it sound light and potentially bright. The next area of significant departure is post 1 kHz. The curve is distinctly below our target until about 5 kHz where it takes the other direction and shoots up a bit over our target. Around 9 kHz and up we have a lot of reflections inside the cups so ignore those ups and downs. I evaluate that area perceptually in the listening test. So overall, not a good showing.

I will do more work in the future to sensitivity but for now I am just reporting what the drive voltage is to achieve the 94 dBSPL reference. As I note later, 94 dBSPL is rather quiet so don't get confused thinking 0.26 volts is all you need to drive this headphone. But as a reference it should do to make comparison against other headphones.

In case you are doubting the reference curve and as a way of comparison, let's measure the Sennheiser HD650 headphone:

View attachment 99384

We see that bass performance is similar but even more anemic in lowest register (although that may be a fit issue -- I did not try to optimize the 650 as much as I did with 800S). From 150 Hz up though the HD650 hugs the curve very well and has none of the deficiencies of the 800S between 1 and 4 kHz. No wonder it is such a popular choice. The HD800S does have more energy at or above 5 kHz. This may be behind its spatial qualities that I will talk about in listening tests.

Next up is distortion measurements. I kept wondering why my speaker distortion measurements were so revealing and the headphone ones were not. I realized that it was all in the presentation of the data (and its optimization). So I mimicked what I had done with Kilippel using Audio Precision software I am using and results snapped into clarity:

View attachment 99387

As with speaker testing I am showing the THD percentage at two output levels: 94 dBSPL and then 104 dBSPL. Note the highly non-linear increase in bass distortion which is what we see in speakers as well. Let's compare the 104 dBSPL against HD650 again:

View attachment 99388

It is a mixed picture with accuracy not being super high but it seems to me that the HD650s settles to lower distortion sooner than HD800s. Overall picture is the same though. We will learn more as we test other headpones.

As with speakers, let's also look at distortion level as opposed to percentage:

View attachment 99389

For some reason I can't get this specific graph to show more harmonics. Based on what is there, 2nd harmonic dominates most of the time except for the region between 100 and 300 Hz where 3rd harmonic becomes highest.

Sennheiser HD800S Listening Tests
As I noted, the best way to know if our preference curve is correct is to try to approach and see if the subjective results are better. So let's do that:

View attachment 99391

I have eliminated the headroom allowance to make the graph easier to read. In reality I had to dial in 6 or more dBs depending on what I was playing to avoid digital clipping. You have a trade off between how much you boost the bass and the headroom you need to allow. I love the clean presentation of deep bass from headphones so dialed in what the preference graph said and results were excellent. My "speaker killer" tracks with their sub bass sounded wonderful. Despite the sharp rise in the distortion graphs, there was no penalty that I could detect in that department despite the high level of boost.

Next job was to fill the gap between 1 and 4 kHz. That is a complex shape to fill in but I approximating it by putting in the conjugate filter to knock off the resonance peak at 5.4 kHz. Once there, I thought the result was a bit bright. A quick shelving filter of 10 kHz solved that problem nicely.

The overall tonality was still "light on its feet" for lack of a better phrase to describe it. There was this lack of congestion and ease to everything I played. What was remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments. It was as if this headphone would take every element in the music, pull it apart, and then position it in different spatial locations in a 6 inch space around each ear. I wouldn't call it "soundstage" as much was it was this fun and captivating effect.

I made a comparison against the HD650 which sounded far more balanced and nicer than HD800S without EQ. With EQ, the HD800S sounded a lot more competitive and that had the above layering that the HD650 did not have. I played by boosting the region in the HD800S that has peaking and that seemed to help create a bit of that effect. Likely the cup size and reflections in HD800S are creating this effect.

Here is a great track to use to test the above effect:

This track just sounds stunning with the HD800S and above equalization. There is deep bass, wonderfully clean highs and that great instrument separation.

Conclusions
The Sennheiser HD800S has great build but comes up way short in tonality. It is light in bass which is typical of many headphones but also cheats us the energy between 1 and 4 kHz. I paid for all the tonality in my music and I want all of it reproduced darn it! Fortunately equalization works despite the massive amount of amplification required in low frequencies. Once there, this headphone is doing something I don't hear with any speaker system and not yet on any headphone. It manages to provide a spooky layering and I guess I should say clarity that is not only surprisingly but delightful. I don't know if the effect will be too much if it comes across a lot of music but so far, I can't help but liking it and liking it a lot.

On a comfort side the HD800S is a delight. I find a lot of other headphone confining but not the 800S. Combine this with the post Equalization and you have a headphone I don't want to part with!

If you don't use equalization then this is not a headphone for you. But if you do use it (as you must with any headphone), and can afford it, the HD800S is a delightful way to experience music. I am going to put The HD 800 S on my recommended list.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

"remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments. It was as if this headphone would take every element in the music, pull it apart, and then position it in different spatial locations"

I think this is a VERY important factor in subjective speaker performance that we miss out when you listen and rate only one speaker. Soundstage and image are big things to ignore. Just saying. Thanks.

 

[Doodski]

OK. I'll take up the task of making the EQ software thread @amirm
The thread is here>
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...q-software-for-windows-mac-and-android.18450/

 

[jhaider]

Interesting. I have the opposite perspective. Headphones don't move. Loudspeakers are affected by placement in the room, standing waves, reflections, and not to mention changes in the MLP. It would make intuitive sense then that headphones would be most amenable to an optimal set of EQ settings, given the lack of other variables. Whereas, with loudspeakers, one set of EQ settings might be great for a particular listening room and MLP, but not for someone else's.

Without writing a dissertation on the subject, suffice it to say that for loudspeakers below a room's "transition frequency" you're more-or-less EQing the room, but above that frequency you're actually EQing the speakers if you're going off of the correct dataset (anechoic or clean gated semi-anechoic data over multiple angles). The latter translates pretty well. If it didn't, every speaker crossover (which is designed, if the designers know what they are doing, to both filter and EQ the drive units) would suck.

In what way are current HPA products sonically inferior to a 20 year-old headroom device? Frequency Response? SNR? THD/IMD?

As stated, no crossfeed circuit.

You guessed correctly. In fact, for high-end cans, listening at home is pretty much the use case for them. Or perhaps you like walking down the street wearing Abyss cans.

I have no idea what "Abyss cans" are but I'm unlikely to wear any item called "Abyss" in any setting. However, in my late teens and early 20s I traveled the world with my only pair of headphones, Sennhesier HD580s, and a HeadRoom Total AirHead amp. HD580s not ideal or good flying headphones, but they are the only headphones I had heard to that point that I enjoyed listening to.

I know 3 off the top of my head...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...qudelix-5k-bluetooth-dac-headphone-amp.17386/

https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/il-dsp-headphone-amp

https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/ha-dsp-headphone-amp

...The Qudelix 5K is the best option of them all in my opinion - tiny and lightweight yet powerful, with a fantastic app to control everything from, and optional Bluetooth (including LDAC) connectivity as a bonus to turn any headphone into a 'wireless' (to source) pair.

There are at least a couple of mobile headphone DAC/amps that include EQ (Qudelix 5K, MiniDSP HA-DSP & IL-DSP)...

Thanks!

I knew of the miniDSP units and think I mentioned my basically unused HA-1 in an earlier post. Unfortunately miniDSP promised iOS connectivity but that was removed shortly before launch, zeroing out my interest in the product. IL-DSP is IMO out of scope due to low power. Quedlix - I think I skimmed Amir’s original review at publication time and saw no mention of PEQ capability. So I assumed it was yet another pointless waste of space me too headphone amp and never read beyond that. Now that I know better, I’ve ordered one. So my bitching may have had a positive result - for me at least!

Also I'm not sure what's up with your arbitrary requirements of not requiring drivers or installing PC software and assuming everyone is only using them on locked down corporate machines.

I’m the only person I personally know with nice headphones at home. However, I know at least a dozen people with expensive “audiophile brand” office headphone rigs. And many dozens more with Bose, AirPods Pro (which are actually very good) etc. I predict that there will be plenty of AirPods Max sightings when things open up.

That said, point taken that I’m being a bit provincial on particular line. People live in different countries with varying population densities, and so on.

Why is Roon (software) EQ unacceptable?

Take your Roon EQ and use it with a YouTube video or a podcast. Or your friend’s iPad. That’s why.

Not sure if anyone ever walks around with HD 800s on the go or who would even take them to work?

Umm, because you’re there for a substantial proportion of your waking hours (or used to be, pre Covid) and music through loudspeakers could leak out of your office?

FWIW since I transitioned to mostly WFH due to Covid the Neumann KH 80 DSP and JL Audio E110 subwoofer in my home office have seen exponential use increases. Even podcasts are more pleasant on a great-sounding system. The Sennheiser HD580 on a König & Meyer hanger have seen next to no increase in use. The only times headphones seem to be in use here are for calls or virtual meetings (AirPods Pro when using my phone, AKG K371BT when using the work computer). By contrast, in my office the desktop speaker setup (ELAC EA-101EQ-G, Mirage OMD-5, Tannoy TS10) was barely used but (until 2020) the Sennheiser HD650s got an annual pad replacement.

All can be solved with installing EQapo in windows or using roon eq on other devices.

Can’t do that on a locked down machine.

Not one headphone has a perfect tonality, so I guess headphone makers should try a bit harder...but tools to fix this are free and FR measurements done by ASR and others will only make the whole EQing thing even easier.

I agree with all of the above. I also think EQ, skillfully used, is an unabashed good. (Do not take my position, incorrectly, as "anti-EQ" or whatever.) However, I reiterate that it does the community poor service to base a product recommendation on a doctored product. If the product includes EQ capability (eg Audeze Cipher) judging the product as optimized by a careful listener using those included tools is perfectly halal. If it doesn't, the product should stand (or fall) on its own merits, with the "how to fix it, and here are the results" being a separate discussion.

We need to move people to usage of EQ.

If that's the goal - and I think it is a laudable goal - consider knocking any headphone amp that does not include EQ down two or three panthers rather than making headphone recommendations based on doctored product.

After all, the amp is the smart place to put headphone EQ. Putting EQ in the source is much more trouble than it's worth. (Exception: vinyl is always trouble anyway, so the signal processing options available in something like the Parks Audio Puffin are kind of nice.) If you EQ in the source then you have to mess with a bunch of different settings in a source app to change from headphones, to desktop speakers, to AirPlay in this room, AirPlay in that room, and so on. I'd rather listen more, dick around less. And of course you don't get any benefits if you change sources.

 

[maverickronin]

I’m the only person I personally know with nice headphones at home. However, I know at least a dozen people with expensive “audiophile brand” office headphone rigs. And many dozens more with Bose, AirPods Pro (which are actually very good) etc. I predict that there will be plenty of AirPods Max sightings when things open up.

That said, point taken that I’m being a bit provincial on particular line. People live in different countries with varying population densities, and so on.

I don't even think it's a country thing. Maybe just different experience. Have you ever been on head-fi or SBAF? They are all much more US-centric than ASR but people there usually use circumaural headphones in home systems, especially open ones. Office systems are usually IEM based with some closed circumaural and surpaural.

 

[amirm]

Well, I think we should be comparing distortion to other headphones and not to speakers.

Well then let's wait until I measure more of them to complain!

The distortion levels here are nothing special in the headphone world - as the comparison to the HD650 distortion demonstrates.

I wouldn't compare my measurements to others. A lot of what I have seen out there are totally random stuff.

 

[MZKM]

I found this paper, but it involves ~30 formulas!

Huzzah!!!
I can now interpolate for any frequency with a good deal of accuracy:

Basically identical.

 

[imagidominc]

I use the original HD800, so I was eager to see what it's new version ranked. I'm glad to see that it does well, although like everyone on planet earth has said, the EQ can be weird. Now, I am one of the few people it seems that.... get ready for it.... listens to the HD800 without EQ SHOCKING I KNNOW!!!! I love it though, so I'm sure putting some EQ on it will just enhance the experience. It can get a tiny bit ear ringing at times, but overall it is my daily driver now and forever. What Amir said about the fun and separation of the instruments is absolutely correct. I own many other great cans like the 650s and Elex. And while they are great, I get the most enjoyment out of my 800. It just feels like I'm listening to music as it was recorded but with a little more energy.

 

[amirm]

If that's the goal - and I think it is a laudable goal - consider knocking any headphone amp that does not include EQ down two or three panthers rather than making headphone recommendations based on doctored product.

It is the goal and no need to demand extra cost hardware where the capability exists for free in software. There is global EQ for Windows systems and that pie alone is massive. Software EQ basically turns a passive headphone into an active one allowing us to not only change their frequency response but impose a target curve which can be personal in nature.

 

[amirm]

I created a new sticky thread for general complaints about headphone measurements. Please post your issues there: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nt-thread-about-headphone-measurements.18451/