i knew dynamics fluctuated their impedance with frequency but had no idea it could be to this extent.Same on HD800s
View attachment 416540
Headphone Test Lab test results manufacturers sennheiser hd 800 s
Headphone Test Lab test results manufacturers sennheiser hd 800 sheadphonetestlab.co.uk
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Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
It's only a 'problem' when the output resistance of the source is relatively too high. In the case of the HD800(S) above 100Ω.
Below HD800S via 0.2Ω, 10Ω, 33Ω and 120Ω
As you can see ... not a real sound changing issue.
Below HD800S via 0.2Ω, 10Ω, 33Ω and 120Ω
As you can see ... not a real sound changing issue.
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so generally, higher impedance dynamics are more forgiving of source output impedance.
and planars unaffected ?
or is it down to sensitivity?
and planars unaffected ?
or is it down to sensitivity?
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Generally, it's because of the variable impedance of dynamics you will get FR response changes when the amp has more output impedance. With flat impedance headphones, usually planars this won't happen.
With HD800s, impedance is highest around 100Hz and will attenuate the signal the least while other frequencies will be attenuated more. That's why before the popularity of EQ, people would recommend high output impedance amps (usually tubes and solid-state) for HD800s.
The bottom line amp should have an output impedance near 0.1 ohms as that will give it the most versatility.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Higher impedance headphones usually are less sensitive.
Most planars have a flat impedance but there are some exceptions, usually due to internal filters or damping schemes IF they do not have a flat impedance.
Dynamic drivers can have a substantial varying impedance down to no variations at all. This is not related to the driver impedance being high or low.
When drivers do have a varying impedance and the variance is the same in percentage and the ratio between the output resistance and impedance is the same the effect is the same.
Because output resistances from sources can vary between 0ohm and 400ohm. This means using high impedance headphones will show less tonal changes than low impedance headphones so one could say that higher impedance headphones are more 'forgiving' when it comes to output resistances of amplifier outputs.
Most portable sources are close to 0ohm, most USB audio interfaces are between a few ohm up to 50ohm or so, tube amps and some specific designs can be anywhere up to 100ohm. Integrated amps (especially the older ones) and AVR's that use the power amp as headphone out through a simple resistor (network) can be anything between 50ohm and 400ohm or so.
It is kind of a lottery and rarely is the output resistance specified.
this is probably a dumb question but i really want to understand, if i can.
what is it about the construction of the HD800 that creates the sound stage? or is it a combination of many things.
i believe i read somewhere on here that stage is not affected by frequency response or tuning.
have searched for this but cannot find it again, which is irritating me as the answer to my main question is probably there somewhere too.
what is it about the construction of the HD800 that creates the sound stage? or is it a combination of many things.
i believe i read somewhere on here that stage is not affected by frequency response or tuning.
have searched for this but cannot find it again, which is irritating me as the answer to my main question is probably there somewhere too.
DEALUX
Active Member
It absolutely is FR. The HD800 has a weird presentation. To me it sounds very hazy because the treble response is so crappy and full of peaks and dips, you can't really tell where sounds are coming from and it creates this sense of artificial space.
The way it sounds is unique enough that some people even like it but it becomes clear how badly tuned it is once you hear headphones with a more linear treble response.
No one really knows, it's a hazy subject - "the soundstage of headphones". For sure it is directly frequency response related in terms of the frequency response you actually receive at your own ear drum which is not the same thing as the measured frequency response on a GRAS or any other fixture. My point being is that if you did something like the Symth Realizer which involves in-ear measurements of your own ear in a listening room with speakers and then also frequency response sweeps measured at your eardrum with your headphone on, then this is a way in which the process can mimic the proper soundstage of speakers in a room for you own personal HRTF (your own anatomy). So frequency response at your own eardrum is what really matters, which is an unknown for everyone unless you've gone down the Smyth Realizer route. Having said that I do think there are soundstage differences between headphones, and yes I/we still don't know how that works, but it's got to be something ultimately about frequency response received at your own ear drum, but reasons why some headphone designs seem to have characteristic soundstages that are sort of reasonably broadly recognised amoung different people (albeit certainly not with guaranteed reliability) is unknown, a lot of which for me persists through different EQ's (albeit this influences it), so certain headphones have different soundstage potentials for me based on their design.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
I think it is a combination of driver shape, ear-driver distance, angled driver, cup design, frequency response.
It is related to frequency response.
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When EQed to Harman, Oratory's optimum curve, or any other target, it retains that spacious sound so it can't only be FR - there are more factors at play. Also treble isn't the only thing responsible for spatial cues.
DEALUX
Active Member
It doesn't really. From my experience the spatial effects are toned down if you aggressively reduce the treble and it reveals how plasticky the treble response is behind those peaks (it has lots of dips too).
Similar feeling. I think it is a very hyped pair of headphone. Much prefer the Focal Utopia I don't have anymore.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Actually it doesn't have a lot of peaks and dips. (measurements without any averaging nor smoothing nor pinna/ear canal effects)
Much less so than most other headphones, maybe with the exception of some DC headphones.
The dips and peaks one sees on the industry standard measurements are caused by the ear canal and used pinna. As these differ from person to person (and standard from standard) you can't really say much about the response above 6kHz.
The dip from 1kHz to 4kHz also has some influence on depth perception. It can give some people the impression they are a bit further away from the performance but others may simply hear that dip as 'lack of clarity' which can easily be EQ'ed.
As this headphone has a lot of pinna activation (driver angled and further away from the ear) the pinna activation amount is also individual dependent.
Removing the 10kHz too aggressively certainly lowers the stereo imaging but it is not all FR but it is a part of it.
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Actually it doesn't have a lot of peaks and dips. (measurements without any averaging nor smoothing nor pinna/ear canal effects)
Removing the 10kHz too aggressively certainly lowers the stereo imaging but it is not all FR but it is a part of it.
Heh. Remembering my eq graph for these, basically almost no mids and no highs anymore that it was bearable.
Still missing Focal Utopia headphones :/
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I agree that FR has an important role, even when EQed to Harman spatial effect is somewhat lessened. But take HD600 and HD800/800s and EQ both to Harman target. HD600 will be much narrower. So if the measured FR is the same, there must be something else to explain it.
In order to completely destroy HD800s spatial effect (to my ears atleast), I would need to correct it to diffuse field target.
Just to get an idea what kind of correction that is:
Among other things, that brings vocals forward and to me creates more in-head sound presentation usual of other headphones. Ofc at that point HD800s sound like sh...t.
Bottom line as I see it: FR is important, but not the only thing. If it turns out it can all be explaind with just FR, then we currently don't know/have the fine-grain tools to explain it.
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This one? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ts-me-to-pick-another-pair.57646/post-2107957
Fair to say you knocked down the right hand side of the frequency response to practically nothing.
DEALUX
Active Member
Not sure how flat plate measurement is representative of anything and yeah, there are smoother measuring headphones like the HD600 and most people do perceive it as sounding smoother and more natural. HD800 treble sounds super plasticky to me and seemed impossible to fix with EQ (i.e. to sound as natural as a headphone with smoother treble).Actually it doesn't have a lot of peaks and dips. (measurements without any averaging nor smoothing nor pinna/ear canal effects)
Much less so than most other headphones, maybe with the exception of some DC headphones.
Dan Clark headphones have huge positional variance, don't they? I've seen some horrible looking graphs.
oratory theorized that some of the spatial qualities come from the interaction around 9-10K, if there's a dip around there things can sound more spread out. On my head the HD800 sounds like it has a huge dip there and that's probably why I don't like its treble that much. I reckon I get better spatial effects on planar headphones with smoother treble. FT1 PRO sounds very wide and tall to me and it's EQ-ed to a tilted DF target that's similar to Harman.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Not sure how industry standard measurements are representative for anything other than the standard they comply to.
Just compare the exact same headphone on 4 different HATS/couplers/pinnae and you'll find they will all measure quite differently above a few kHz.
Which one (and which configuration) is the 'correct one' and why ?
That's the trouble with any headphone measurement, regardless how it is made. They are indicative at best.
It would help if you could define 'plasticky' sound.
HD6** is indeed very smooth but none have them have any appreciable sound stage. Also not when EQ'ed to the same response (again on which fixture) so there is more to it than FR (and resonances).
Technically the HD6** series is much better in almost all aspects but it lacks here and there in soundstage (for most people) and imaging.
I have not heard nor measured any DC headphones but the MrSpeakers ones were quite decent. From what I saw in measurements is that when positioned properly on HATS the response was anything but horrible.
Just compare the exact same headphone on 4 different HATS/couplers/pinnae and you'll find they will all measure quite differently above a few kHz.
Which one (and which configuration) is the 'correct one' and why ?
That's the trouble with any headphone measurement, regardless how it is made. They are indicative at best.
It would help if you could define 'plasticky' sound.
HD6** is indeed very smooth but none have them have any appreciable sound stage. Also not when EQ'ed to the same response (again on which fixture) so there is more to it than FR (and resonances).
Technically the HD6** series is much better in almost all aspects but it lacks here and there in soundstage (for most people) and imaging.
I have not heard nor measured any DC headphones but the MrSpeakers ones were quite decent. From what I saw in measurements is that when positioned properly on HATS the response was anything but horrible.
But in HD650s my Helix (upper part of ear) is stuck in the plastic clip of the ear-cup holder and it hurts.
So ergonomics I would rate them way below the HD800s
DEALUX
Active Member
Some headphones measure very similarly across rigs (I think the FT1 PRO is one of them) and that seems to indicate that it will sound similar on a lot of people's heads. I can confirm that it's very easy to EQ for that same reason (but also because it largely complies with DF).
I think in subjective terms it's lack of smaller details or texture, when a headphone suffers from too many dips and peaks. I've spoken to a lot of people who feel similarly about the HD800, that it has no clarity and sounds hollow.
