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Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)

andreasmaaan

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While age has no impact on headphone preference as a whole, it does have an effect on bass and treble preferences.

Edit; somebody else already posted this image I see.

View attachment 99442

I think "possibly" is the operative word there.

The science tells us that older listeners prefer less bass.

An untested hypothesis is that this has something to do with hearing loss (although personally I see that as a bit of a long shot, given the correlation between age and preference for less treble, too!).
 

pozz

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Koeitje

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I think "possibly" is the operative word there.

The science tells us that older listeners prefer less bass.

An untested hypothesis is that this has something to do with hearing loss (although personally I see that as a bit of a long shot, given the correlation between age and a preference for less treble, too!).
Yes, and its also means there are possibly exceptions among listeners. But I think its a hypothesis that makes a lot of sense.
 

pma

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As @Blumlein 88 stated above, it seems headphone reviews may lead us into the dangerous "measures worse but sounds better" territory.
Let's give it some time, but if that mantra applies to headphones, it will become harder to argue it doesn't potentially apply to everything else...

Or it may push us to think more deep. Remember, we never measure enough, whatever we do.
 

Koeitje

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I tend to disagree, although ofc all we can do here is speculate :)

Why would older listeners also prefer less treble, if that were the case?
I'm not sure what the treble range is that was tested here. But if its 7Khz+ its a different story than if its 13Khz+.
 

A Surfer

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I still prefer the natural tone of the HD650(/HD600/HD580 Precision... series). But the HD800(s) EQ'd sound pretty massive, great. Quite a technical sound though.. :)
I agree. I owned the HD800S as well as the 600/650/700. I really liked the 800S, it had a very special quality to it and I found the speed and sound stage to be quite enjoyable. I only lightly boosted the bass, nowhere near what Amir did and I loved it with EDM and techno music. I also played a fair amount of vocal and smaller ensemble jazz/world music and found the presentation pretty nice. I would like to own the 800S again, not that it didn't have flaws, but even so it had quite a bit to offer. I like and agree with your description of it being a technical sounding headphone, although it never fatigued me.
 

PierreV

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Or it may push us to think more deep. Remember, we never measure enough, whatever we do.

Yes, I am 100% in favor of objective measurements. What I am less a fan of is when objectivity becomes reductive as I feel it does in preference scores.
 

solderdude

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If it isn't FR and/or distortion, what is it? How does one explain or quantify imaging and detail retrieval? Just a rhetorical question I guess as my subjective experience matches yours and, worse (at least in the ASR/Harman preference score context), I get a similar feeling about loudspeakers...

As @Blumlein 88 stated above, it seems headphone reviews may lead us into the dangerous "measures worse but sounds better" territory.
Let's give it some time, but if that mantra applies to headphones, it will become harder to argue it doesn't potentially apply to everything else...

Measurement signals used to measure properties of electronic equipment may well not be suited to measure transducers and all acoustical properties. We may need different/additional types of measurements/signals to show certain aspects of drivers that aren't shown with static signals.
Nulling for instance is not possible for speakers/headphones where it is possible for electronics. An easy method to confirm electrical performance.
Dynamic signals (music) will reproduce quite differently on specific frequencies compared to how electronics react and these, in electronics, can be checked with nulling.
This method cannot be used for transducers (see issues with MFB and Noise Cancelling) and I suspect that's where the 'issues' would be most obvious.

Basically I don't know, and alas don't have time nor do I want to allocate the needed funds to research this if I had the time.
It would be kind of interesting to find a more 'telling' method of evaluating headphones by measurements only.
For now I use 'regular' measurements that tell me something and use 'listening' methods to verify what is measured with methods I think work (regardless of what others may believe/think/know)
The mind is easily tricked so both methods (listening and measurements) are needed both for evaluating headphones and speakers. Both methods do show parts of the whole picture.

Ranking is something I don't get into but do like to differentiate between poor, mediocre, good and excellent for myself. Others may have different views and rank things differently. For instance the rankings for headphones that are already out there do not correlate well so to me 'fine' ranking is not really making sense. Headphone A is not always and for everyone a tiny bit 'better' than headphone B.
 

andreasmaaan

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I'm not sure what the treble range is that was tested here. But if its 7Khz+ its a different story than if its 13Khz+.

I stand corrected. Just had another look at the study.

On average, older listeners preferred 0.5dB to 1dB more treble than younger listeners.

The results are summarised in these box plots:

1608042814772.png


I have to agree with you that it's a reasonable hypothesis :)

Olive and Welti found that older listeners:
...prefer less bass than their younger counterparts and (+0.5 to 1 dB more treble) than the younger listeners. The preference for more treble could be noise or age-related hearing loss where the greatest loss in sensitivity to sounds occurs at higher frequency. The combination of older listeners preferring less bass and more treble could be a compensation for their hearing loss. More research is needed where hearing loss is as a controlled variable.
 

A Surfer

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And in the end, regardless of how important data from measurements is, and it is very important indeed, we still have to acknowledge that the perception of music is done through listening. The hearing brain is a wonderful thing and we should be able to embrace purely subjective pleasant experiences as well. It is entirely possible, even likely that there will be a very broad continuum of preferences and even at the individual level that might be very dynamic and change from day to day. I had a pretty large collection of headphones and have owned many and I can honestly say that there were days I would put on a headphone that a few days earlier I had an amazing listening session with only to find it surprisingly underwhelming.

My point as muddy as it is, I think it is perfectly fine, and perhaps even scientifically explainable to accept that even if things measure in a way that suggests they may be less than ideal, that somebody somewhere is going to love the sound and think it is the best thing since sliced bread. I suspect as with most things the preferences of all people would likely become a bell curve with something like the Harman response curve at the apex. But even that would depend on several dynamic factors at the individual level so a considerable amount of variability is just the nature of the game when dealing with something as complex as how sound creates a neurochemical mélange that creates joy.
 

jhaider

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I don't at all like the idea, in loudspeakers but especially in headphones, of recommendations based on listening through EQ.

For loudspeakers I can see some semblance of justification. Loudspeakers don't move, and even if most "audiophile" gear is obsolete dross (no or primitive bass management; no room correction) at least speakers are fixed in place and DSP (built into modern equipment, or as an external component) is readily available.

For headphones there is, however, no reasonable justification. I don't think headphones should get a free pass on the necessary condition of pleasing tonal balance, unless the tools to improve it are included in the package.

The primary reason is the headphone amp market is in a state of complete and total failure. Almost universally, the products offered are sonically inferior to a 20 year-old HeadRoom device, There is more SINAD or whatever (BFD after a fairly low level of attainment) but no actually useful innovation in the form of modern processing (PEQ, crossfeed or more advanced room simulation) or the required UI. MiniDSP HA-1's had promise, but ended up a failure because they pulled iDevice compatibility at the last minute. So it ended up being unusable with the devices people actually use with their headphones. Nobody else seems to have even tried to make a useful headphone amp.

Furthermore, software EQ is simply not an acceptable ersatz. I guess there are a few people who prefer to listen to headphones at home. But the bulk of users will use them on the go, or in offices connected to locked-down computers. There is no opportunity to EQ them in such cases, due to the aforementioned market failure in headphone amps. So bottom line a pair of headphones with poor tonality (and no included corrective tools) are bad headphones, regardless of price, brand, etc.
 

A Surfer

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And absolutely it is a very, very reasonable theory that older listeners will prefer less bass because it will obscure a great deal of detail that they are having more difficulty retrieving. Aging is a cruel irony, just as we start to amass enough capital to really get the gear we have dreamed about, and have the experience to set it up well, our hearing starts deteriorating. I am 52 now and without a doubt my hearing is not what it was even at 45. It sucks, but I am not going to pretend that my age isn't why I hear things less well now.

Treble helps when listening to spoken word and I find now that I have some loss in the upper frequencies that I can struggle in some situations to hear what is being said well. We also have to realize that hearing loss and age will have plenty of individual variation so some older people may have surprisingly good hearing for their age, and conversely some young people will have surprisingly poor hearing for their age. Likely the population will fall out along a normally distributed bell curve here as well.
 

A Surfer

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I don't at all like the idea, in loudspeakers but especially in headphones, of recommendations based on listening through EQ.

For loudspeakers I can see some semblance of justification. Loudspeakers don't move, and even if most "audiophile" gear is obsolete dross (no or primitive bass management; no room correction) at least speakers are fixed in place and DSP (built into modern equipment, or as an external component) is readily available.

For headphones there is, however, no reasonable justification. I don't think headphones should get a free pass on the necessary condition of pleasing tonal balance, unless the tools to improve it are included in the package.

The primary reason is the headphone amp market is in a state of complete and total failure. Almost universally, the products offered are sonically inferior to a 20 year-old HeadRoom device, There is more SINAD or whatever (BFD after a fairly low level of attainment) but no actually useful innovation in the form of modern processing (PEQ, crossfeed or more advanced room simulation) or the required UI. MiniDSP HA-1's had promise, but ended up a failure because they pulled iDevice compatibility at the last minute. So it ended up being unusable with the devices people actually use with their headphones.

Furthermore, software EQ is simply not an acceptable ersatz. I guess there are a few people who prefer to listen to headphones at home. But the bulk of users will use them on the go, or in offices connected to locked-down computers. There is no opportunity to EQ them in such cases, due to the aforementioned market failure in headphone amps. So bottom line a pair of headphones with poor tonality (and no included corrective tools) are bad headphones, regardless of price, brand, etc.
It is personal. People are free to choose what they buy so bad is a relative judgement.
 

pozz

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Regarding age-related hearing loss: it is not like an EQ. The physiological processes behind it cause a change in the perception of loudness.

Hearing is both cognitive and nonlinear. The discussions about hearing loss mostly look at it as a linear process, i.e., a straightforward mechanical deficiency and correction through EQ.

What happens is that overall relationship between SPL and loudness starts to change quickly as you get on. I've seen studies which show that different subjective levels of loudness become compressed, with younger people requiring more of a difference in SPL to consider a sound at one level vs. another to have distinctively different loudness, and these variances are not the same across the audible range.

So @Frank Dernie is right. You can't just boost highs or choose a bright headphone/speaker and expect a natural response with hearing loss. It could easily not map to your subjective loudness map.

The cognitive aspect is also important: by "hearing" (in the cognitive sense of recognizing, contextualizing) you are able to place and settle the auditory event into larger patterns like rhythm, tempo, melody (which is a distinctly Western thing, by the way, in the sense of a melody being an abstraction from a more general musical movement). For some people, it is more than enough to follow music by listening mostly to lyrics and accompaniment, or to follow certain beats. This requires less tonal balance and less of an empirically-oriented active memory.

So there is much to be said about personal hearing practice. This is why a built-in treble/bass boost works, as does treble droop (you are forced to listen harder, or perhaps focus less on details). As soon as you learn to judge tonal balance, these features are far less attractive in their own right. From this perspective the main feature of blind testing is its requirement for the listener to adopt a hearing practice that centers on empirical features like tonal balance, spaciousness, envelopment (edit: this is probably why mono listening with speakers tends to produce more discerning results than stereo or multichannel, since those are necessarily more "computational", more inherently cognitive, than mono). Some people are better at it than others, and many are able to learn that practice and carry it with them.

Not saying that this means the Harman curve is necessarily neutral, but it's somewhere around there. It's best feature is the demand for smoothness and no sharp discontinuities across the spectrum.
 
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wemist01

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oh my, i know the review's intended to be good, but the measurements being less preferable than HD650 is quite concerning...

i do find it interesting too that despite the poorer FR than the 650, the subjective review post-EQ is that strongly positive. (like, shouldn't the 650 have the same outcome post-EQ too?)

i'll just comfort myself for not being able to afford this headphones by just looking at the FR but not your actual conclusion :p


What's the surprise here? I'm happy to see a validation in the test methods, because what I'm reading is very nearly the same as what you find here:
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/sennheiser-hd800s-headphone-review/#balance
And here is the 650. Note the distortion measurments, very similar to what we see here (no idea why they don't include distortion for the 800S review.)
https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/sennheiser-hd650-review/#sound
 

jhaider

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It is personal. People are free to choose what they buy so bad is a relative judgement.

I don't give a damn what people "choose to buy." Buying shit is completely out of the scope of my point. My point is that a recommendation should be based on the performance of the actual product, optimized using its included capabilities, not some doctored version of it. The issue is more acute in headphones, because in the real world audio companies have thus far failed to market useful headphone amps. So as a practical matter the doctored version is not available.
 

Cahudson42

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@amin Sorry if I missed it - but what HP amp is being used for your reviews? And if it's not one you have reviewed, perhaps it's power/distortion curves and output impedance?
 

andreasmaaan

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What happens is that overall relationship between SPL and loudness starts to change quickly as you get on. I've seen studies which show that different subjective levels of loudness become compressed, with younger people requiring more of a difference in SPL to consider a sound at one level vs. another to have distinctively different loudness, and these variances are not the same across the audible range.

Excellent post @pozz, thanks :)

Do you happen to have links to these studies?
 

hangcheng

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View attachment 99391

I have a 800s. curious that how is improved
by your eq setting. is there anyway I can just download and load your eq? what is your eq software? I tried parametric eq as a software name, but get nothing similar....
 
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