Sennheiser HD800S Review (Headphone)

[gatucho]

Hi,

Any recommandations about a small player, not too expensive, that can do what you're saying ?

I'm ready to get it if I can get if without sacrifiicing a kidney

I'd be glad to consider it... to see what EQ can add to my listening experience and improve it.

Hi, a good old android phone, those LGs with the Sabre Dac can be obtained really cheap or using a cheap external dac (@amirm has reviewed a few) with usb audio player Pro or neutron is a very capable option. Won't cost you a kidney (maybe a little piece of liver, but it grows again!)

 

[gatucho]

Direct comparison:

View attachment 99917

The HE4XX has the least bass roll-off, generally smoothest response, and highest upper-treble extension (important for good 'resolution' / 'detail').

Below are their predicted preference ratings before (and after) EQ.

HE4XX: 88 (108)
HE400i 2020: 86 (93)
HE400i 2016: 80 (85)

The HE400i models' lower post-EQ scores are likely due to erroneous non-minimum phase parts of their frequency response that are not able to be effectively EQed out.

If bass roll-off is such a big issue the one must consider IEMs. Bass level is not a problem with those. Latest chi-fi IEMs follow Harman targets to an incredible level.

 

[bobbooo]

If bass roll-off is such a big issue the one must consider IEMs. Bass level is not a problem with those. Latest chi-fi IEMs follow Harman targets to an incredible level.

Well it's not an issue if you just EQ it up, and the headphone has low distortion in the bass, as most planar magnetic ones like those Hifimans do.

 

[gatucho]

Well it's not an issue if you just EQ it up, and the headphone has low distortion in the bass, as most planar magnetic ones like those Hifimans do.

I agree, but I'm also implying that if FR is king, the IEMs are the way to go, some of the latest offerings are really close to targets. However, most people would say that full size (and open) headphones just sound better.

 

[lxlx]

Hi,

Any recommandations about a small player, not too expensive, that can do what you're saying ?

I'd be glad to consider it... to see what EQ can add to my listening experience and improve it.

Radsone es100

 

[kohlerm]

I don't think science goes away if some people like more bass than others. E.g. comparing it or tuning it to a certain curve is just fine for me. That being said. are we sure that an IEM with the same curve sounds the same as a huge headphone like the tests Sennheiser?

BTW IMHO Peace for EqualizerAPO is amazing!
I can highly recommend the hearing test, which can be used as a starting point for Equalizing. I Iearned that I can still hear up to the highest frequency and that the peak around 10k for the Sundara is really audible for me.

 

[Robbo99999]

It is my own and I purchased it November 4th, 2017.

Cool, so that will be the 2016 version of the HiFiman HE 400i then (rather than the 2020 version).

 

[Robbo99999]

Direct comparison:

View attachment 99917

The HE4XX has the least bass roll-off, generally smoothest response, and highest upper-treble extension (important for good 'resolution' / 'detail').

Below are their predicted preference ratings before (and after) EQ.

HE4XX: 88 (108)
HE400i 2020: 86 (93)
HE400i 2016: 80 (85)

The HE400i models' lower post-EQ scores are likely due to erroneous non-minimum phase parts of their frequency response that are not able to be effectively EQed out.

Oh yeah, that's that new graphing tool of Oratory's, I've bookmarked that before, I can remember to use that in the future.

Yep, the order of preference of those EQ scores is how I would have expected them based on how easy the curves look to EQ.

 

[phoenixsong]

Equalizer APO for Windows seems good if you prefer manual tuning. I prefer using it with Peace GUI. If you just want reasonably makes sense presets to choose for specific headphones, SoundID by Sonarworks works well too. But the Sonarworks software will disable any spatial audio feature while APO doesn’t.

So I just tried the Sonarworks. It did save a headphone I nearly tossed- the Presonus HD9. However, certain songs sounded bad with the EQ and I generally still prefer my other headphones even without EQ over the HD9. I believe science can objectively explain everything, including device matching, but do you think certain aspects have not been measured yet?

Confusion is one thing, which be rampant without measurements, but on the other hand I fear that people will treat still incomplete measurements as the Holy Grail, persecuting all others for daring to voice any doubt while flaunting these measurements as their "entitled" justification. This would lead to Stagnation, which is both science and humankind's greatest nemesis. We all got to where we are now through questioning and finding the answers after all

 

[phoenixsong]

That sounds good. 400i 2020 version is most similar to the 4XX, with the 400i 2016 version being less similar to the 4XX. Do you know which version of the 400i you've tested? I think the 2020 version had updated pads IIRC, which might be the reason for the different response.
Here are some frequency responses from Oratory of the 3 different versions, showing the 2020 version is most similar to the 4XX, particularly the bass response:
HE 4XX:
View attachment 99854
HE 400i (2020 version):
View attachment 99855
HE 400i (2016 version):
View attachment 99856
EDIT: scrub my previous sentence, actually the HE4XX has the treble of the 2016 version and the bass of the 2020 version, so it's not really possible to say from frequency response which one the 4XX is most alike.

EDIT #2: the 2016 version looks like the hardest to EQ. I think in order of preference of ownership of those three (assuming EQ), I'd go HE4XX > 2020 version > 2016 version. Without EQ I think I'd choose HE4XX again, and then the 2020 & 2016 version on equal footing in last place.

Now you got me really curious- I possess both the older HE400i with the 3.5mm connectors and the HE4XX. Curious to listen to the new HE400i, and maybe a modded HE5XX

 

[phoenixsong]

Hi, a good old android phone, those LGs with the Sabre Dac can be obtained really cheap or using a cheap external dac (@amirm has reviewed a few) with usb audio player Pro or neutron is a very capable option. Won't cost you a kidney (maybe a little piece of liver, but it grows again!)

My previous phone was the LG G6 H870DS with Quad DAC. Its sound quality I still sorely miss :'(

 

[Bob-23]

After checking at Thomann, I can see the K702 pads are advertised for K701 too....just the colour is different.....the K701 pads on Thomann (the correct colour) also look angled from the pics, yes so I think you're right & they're both angled pads, and probably identical apart from colour:

Thomann says they're interchangeable but not totally identical, that there's a difference between K701's pads and K702's pads, albeit a very small one. (A difference in shape)

It's the K712's pads which are very different (gel) - and, I guess, you could make the K702 sound nearly like the K712 by applying these gel pads.

 

[solderdude]

K712 vs K702 with K712 memory foam pads.

very similar but not the same.

Below the K712 vs K7XX

I thought this was a HD800S thread but turned into a K702, HE4XX thread again.

 

[Feelas]

What it provides to the discussion is that the consensus from the parties that contributed to settling on the tone curve that became "the Harman Curve" are completely content with the tone of $3 Samsung Earbuds that came supplied with my samsung Note 8 phone. I couldn't have had my dislike & distaste for that target curve supported with a more powerful statement had I begged the gods for it and one of them delivered.

They aren't completely content, they just don't have the willingness to care. Besides, these are not the same people and please stop throwing straw-man arguments. Besides that, it seems to be the first curve targeted onto headphones. It's a big step forward. Happy to see that anybody cares at all.

I thought this was a HD800S thread but turned into a K702, HE4XX thread again.

Fighting buyer remorse, perhaps.

 

[thefsb]

That was in the review:

You need a parametric EQ (PEQ). You then select the type of filter, followed by the center frequency, Gain and Q factor as listed in the table above for bands 1 through 5. The last one is to taste. The first and second ones are as well.

I had assumed that suitable EQ depends on the make and model of the headphones. And I took your words as meaning that one must in general use EQ with any headphones. ["If you don't use equalization then this is not a headphone for you. But if you do use it (as you must with any headphone)".] This might be my misunderstanding but if not and indeed anyone using headphones must also use EQ then I wonder how we should determine the EQ.

 

[bobbooo]

I agree, but I'm also implying that if FR is king, the IEMs are the way to go, some of the latest offerings are really close to targets. However, most people would say that full size (and open) headphones just sound better.

I do like IEMs, especially custom-molded ones that just seem to disappear in your ears and makes it feel like the music is being channeled directly into your brain, but what they lack completely is any tactile bass, which some over-ear headphones can provide a small amount of, felt on the pinna or sometimes the skull around the ear (obviously still nowhere near the tactile bass felt from a proper full-range speaker or subwoofer). I suspect this complete lack of tactile bass in IEMs is why Harman found people prefer more bass in them than over-ear headphones. IEMs obviously also lack the 'pinna activation' of over-ear headphones which is important for soundstage, although this can be simulated through frequency response (look up Blauert bands).

 

[infinitesymphony]

Thank you for posting an excellent example of my biggest problem with everything centered around matching the Harman (sic) target curve. I took a sampling of several dozen measurement plots published there. What seems to be the one that most closely matches that target curve? The Samsung Galaxy Buds. Enough of this insanity!

What it provides to the discussion is that the consensus from the parties that contributed to settling on the tone curve that became "the Harman Curve" are completely content with the tone of $3 Samsung Earbuds that came supplied with my samsung Note 8 phone. I couldn't have had my dislike & distaste for that target curve supported with a more powerful statement had I begged the gods for it and one of them delivered.

The Samsung Galaxy Buds are not $3 included earbuds, they are Bluetooth wireless earbuds that sell for around $100.

 

[Robbo99999]

Now you got me really curious- I possess both the older HE400i with the 3.5mm connectors and the HE4XX. Curious to listen to the new HE400i, and maybe a modded HE5XX

I think you're good with the HE4XX, probably not worth trying the HE400i 2020 version, because HE4XX has a more accurate treble in comparison as well as a bit more bass extension - see bobbooo's post (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ser-hd800s-review-headphone.18424/post-604970). (don't know anything about HE5XX)

 

[Joachim Herbert]

For a high-end model like this, from a reputable manufacturer like Senn, it would be nice if we could hear from their designers and engineers (not the marketing department!) to see what they were going for in designing these headphones.

We had a factory tour right after launch of the original HD800. They were up to design a successor to the original Orpheus, the HE1 according to Axel Grell, head of product development back then. A HE60 ("baby orpheus") plus bass was my initial impression, being owner of the HD800 then and having owned the HE60 for several years.

 

[m8o]

The Samsung Galaxy Buds are not $3 included earbuds, they are Bluetooth wireless earbuds that sell for around $100.

Thank you for correcting my ignorance. That its active, so could employ EQ that could explain the close correlation to the Harman target.

Tho also, not the one you linked to, rather this slightly cheaper one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MWCNR3W/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_Fks3Fb5Y18DG9