Sennheiser HD660 S vs HD650 - Which side are you on?

[Hi-fi DTH]

hmm so that seem great if I buy something that use DHL for shipping but factor the VAT up is another problem.

 

[*Cihan*]

It's maybe a little off topic but can anyone make a comparison between the HD family and AKG K612 pro?

 

[solderdude]

K612 pro is more forward and brighter and in general less refined in the treble than most HD***.
There are also differences between various HD*** models just like there are differences between K*** models..

 

[*Cihan*]

K612 pro is more forward and brighter and in general less refined in the treble than most HD***.
There are also differences between various HD*** models just like there are differences between K*** models..

Thank you for the reply. I read all your comments about Sennheiser HD series and k612 on your site. You have written "The HD58X Jubilee is an excellent entry level headphone." on conclusion of your review. In fact I'm totally confused with this statement. As far as I understood, hd58x and hd6xx sound better than k612 pro for you and better than some more headphones too probably. But why do you consider hd58x an entry level then? I heard k612 pro before and I used to like it a lot. It sounded flat to me. I have never heard any of HD6** series before. I'm trying to decide between HD58x and HD6xx. Could you please explain how "less refined" sounds like? With undesirable harmonics? Or like different measured wave shape than the original wave shape in sound? Like for example a violin doesn't sound as it should sound because headphones change timbre of violin?

By the way toilet paper mode made me laugh a lot. I started to question research of headphone companies after reading that.

 

[solderdude]

HD58X is the cheapest option in the HD6** series. Just like for instance the HE400i or HE400SE are entry level headphones.
Entry level does not mean cheap and poor quality.

It is not as good as HD600 in the treble and in clarity (quality and amount)
It is not as 'smooth' in the treble as HD6XX and HD650
It is not as linear in the lows as HD660S
It sounds different from HD560S as well.

When you like the K612 I see no reason to look for HD series (other than HD560S) as the treble of HD series will be lower.

Smooth treble = soft texture but not subdued.
The 5khz peak in the HD58X makes the treble less 'smooth/soft' sounding. It is a different kind of treble as that from the AKG K*** series.
Some prefer AKG treble, others HD6XX treble others HD58X treble.
I have no way of knowing what you will like. Only what I prefer.

A violin will sound 'sharper' in the K612 than in the HD series. There are also differences between HD series. When you find violins a bit unnatural accentuated you can try HD series. When you find the violins to sound right in the K612 buy/use that one or consider the HD560S.

 

[*Cihan*]

HD58X is the cheapest option in the HD6** series. Just like for instance the HE400i or HE400SE are entry level headphones.
Entry level does not mean cheap and poor quality.

It is not as good as HD600 in the treble and in clarity (quality and amount)
It is not as 'smooth' in the treble as HD6XX and HD650
It is not as linear in the lows as HD660S
It sounds different from HD560S as well.

When you like the K612 I see no reason to look for HD series (other than HD560S) as the treble of HD series will be lower.

Smooth treble = soft texture but not subdued.
The 5khz peak in the HD58X makes the treble less 'smooth/soft' sounding. It is a different kind of treble as that from the AKG K*** series.
Some prefer AKG treble, others HD6XX treble others HD58X treble.
I have no way of knowing what you will like. Only what I prefer.

A violin will sound 'sharper' in the K612 than in the HD series. There are also differences between HD series. When you find violins a bit unnatural accentuated you can try HD series. When you find the violins to sound right in the K612 buy/use that one or consider the HD560S.

Thank you, I'll buy one of the hd6xx or hd58x during this discount but still cannot decide. I guess I'll go with cheaper hd58x. I wonder if higher impedance headphones respond better to equalization since they'll require less current. So could this be a reason to choose hd6xx over hd58x? I'm sure I'll need equalization or use a mod to drive these.

 

[usern]

Low distortion matters most for equalization. HD560S are very good with EQ and they have pretty low distortion drivers, maybe even better than HD600 series.

 

[solderdude]

I wonder if higher impedance headphones respond better to equalization since they'll require less current.

There is absolutely no relation between EQ and impedance nor current.

 

[*Cihan*]

There is absolutely no relation between EQ and impedance nor current.

I thought this way, I will need more current for a low impedance headphones to equalize. Somehow I can increase voltage to equalize but maybe the amp won't be able to supply enough current.

 

[solderdude]

Under normal listening level conditions (comfortably loud) we are talking about a few mA of peak current to drive 120ohm and 300ohm headphones.
Less than 5mA (that is milli amps) so virtually no current.
There isn't a single headphone amp on this planet that will run into current problems with these headphones.
Even OTL tube amps with low power output tubes will have no problems supplying the required currents.
Voltage problems with phones, tablets etc.... sure.

 

[pk500]

What do you guys think about the HD 560s? I tried both the 660s and the 560s in a store and was surprisingly more impressed with the 560s. I noticed I wanted to keep on listening to them, and when I tried out the 660s afterwards I was done with them within a few minutes and wanted to go back to the 560s.

Very neutral, almost flat sound signature. More resolution and slightly wider soundstage than 6xx. But the treble spike bothers me. I'm not a basshead or treble fanatic, but the sound is so neutral on the HD 560s that it borders or boring and clinical for me.

I prefer the HD 6xx. Zero brain fatigue; they're the easiest headphones to listen to that I've owned. The treble spike of the HD 560s caused brain fatigue for me within an hour.

Your mileage may vary ... the HD 560s is a very nice headphone if you seek a flat, clinical sound signature.

 

[Paweł L]

Thank you, I'll buy one of the hd6xx or hd58x during this discount but still cannot decide. I guess I'll go with cheaper hd58x. I wonder if higher impedance headphones respond better to equalization since they'll require less current. So could this be a reason to choose hd6xx over hd58x? I'm sure I'll need equalization or use a mod to drive these.

The 58X sounds a bit different from 6XX, even with EQ to make both of them flat. 6XX is way better above 1kHz, and I would say more resolving. 58X has more mids and low end, and I think the bass is faster. If the 58X is still on sale for $120-130 then, yeah I would go for it. But for regular price 6XX is a better headphone, much cleaner, but without the extra warmth and a bit of extra bass extension. If you decide to go for 58X the Solderdude's mod with K240 foam on the back of the drivers motor structure is what I would recommend (seems like Beyer DT880 foam is similar as well). Also check his measurements with current pads - the old pads sound smoother.
P.S. the lower impedance and extra sensitivity makes them almost good enough volume wise for most cellphones and other portable devices.
I have to find a way to audition K612, since some people like them and they don't cost a lot.

 

[Streamc]

660S. In most cases I prefer them to 650. But in 2/10 of songs 650 would be better. One time I have both. But now I sold 650.

 

[Majestyk]

First i had the 650, then the 6XX and i really liked them.
But i found the soundstage a little too congested, too thick, so i thought i should try the HD600. That was a bad idea, even though the sound was really natural, clear and airy, the overall sound was really lean, very thin bass and kinda glaring compared to the 650. After i sent back the HD600 i've found open box HD660s and bought it. In my opinion, the HD660s is the best out of the 3, close to the 650 sound, but more crisp, detailed, the low end not so muddy, the mid not so overly forward and theres a little bit of extra spark in the high range.

If the 600's sound lean then they are under amped. On my vintage Yamaha receiver it's 600>650>660S. The 660S sounds like a bass cannon and needs some bass/treble tweaking to sound half decent. So on my system they are over amped.

 

[solderdude]

If the 600's sound lean then they are under amped. On my vintage Yamaha receiver it's 600>650>660S. The 660S sounds like a bass cannon and needs some bass/treble tweaking to sound half decent. So on my system they are over amped.

Not really... on your system the frequency response of the 3 headphones is audibly modified due to the unusually high output resistance of the headphone out socket.
Certainly with older receivers, and even current models, the output resistance can be anything between 200Ω and 600Ω.

 

[Majestyk]

Well, that too. Just like 300 ohm (HD600) is more than likely not a good match for NDRQ's setup. Although interestingly I have had other 150 ohm headphones which sounded perfectly fine on my receiver. (IE: AKG K612). Be that as it may, many find the 660S darker than the 650, which seems to be the case in this demo...

 

[solderdude]

That's because the K612 is a lot brighter and so the 'bass boost effect' is much less 'darkening' on a higher output R.
It does get a bit more lows and upper treble on a higher output R so slightly more U shaped which in general people like.
Where as with the Senns the midbass becomes bloomier.

 

[A Surfer]

Absolutely what solderdude is articulating, high R output can have an interaction effect and result in audible changes. Very few integrated amps ever have a dedicated headphone section, some do, but none of those vintage receivers would.

 

[A Surfer]

That's because the K612 is a lot brighter and so the 'bass boost effect' is much less 'darkening' on a higher output R.
It does get a bit more lows and upper treble on a higher output R so slightly more U shaped which in general people like.
Where as with the Senns the midbass becomes bloomier.

Quick question for you, I feel like the answer to this should be obvious, but at least for me it isn't. If you have a speaker tap cable and the headphone is driven right from the speaker terminals how exactly does one know what the R will be? Thanks, any information that you might provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

[solderdude]

Output R will be very close to 0.

Without attenuation you might hear background hiss.
You could always make a passive attenuator.
Low impedance much much lower than headphone out on power amps), lower noise floor (because of attenuation), less chance of accidentally blowing up (lower impedance) headphones and possibly even your hearing.

> 300Ω headphones usually can be connected to medium power speaker amps directly.