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Sennheiser HD650 Review (Headphone)

solderdude

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Sennheiser did make headphones with a Harman style bass boost (even worse than Harman) but made it a bit more lively/detailed by increasing the treble a bit too far. It wasn't an open headphone though that came close.

fr-hd250-ii.png


I don't know of many open headphones with a subbass boost close to Harman aside from the one below. Also a bit treble happy... but fixable.

HD681-2018-FR.png
 

Francis Vaughan

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Of course the last part of the quote means they're screwing with their own (possibly scientific) findings to appeal to global audiophoolery...
Well the Harman curve is a preference curve. If they know the work, but feel they have an improved idea about preference, they may well be right. In the end, if everyone loves it and it sells and sells, they clearly know something about user preference.
The Harman curve is two things really. In the end it is a HRTF convolved with the existing speaker preferences, plus the observation that, in general, people seems to like more bass in headphones. It isn't set in stone. It is as accurate as, and limited by, the measurements that went into it.
The HRTF is an average, and thus the exact break points of the curves in the higher frequencies should not be taken as an absolute. There is possibly some room for individuals to prefer different headphones based on how well those headphones match the individual's HRTF. Indeed I have a feeling that a metric that demands exact fitting to the frequency breakpoints is suspect in its utility. The amplitudes and general shape of the response curves matter, but the breakpoints?, that is open to question.
 

F1308

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PeteL

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It may have been answered in other reviews, but @amirm what eq plugin/app are you using?
 

Robin L

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Just to add to the killer bass tracks, I'll submit a favourite. There is no messing about here.
Ben Frost, Killshot from By The Throat.
https://benfrost.bandcamp.com/track/killshot

View attachment 101601
This track has some deep fundamentals, more of a massage for the ears than tones or pitches.


The 6XX's go down there, but there's a sense of restraint. These headphones are better with acoustic sounds than with club mixes. A great all-rounder, but not really for the true basshead. Also, not so good with low-power devices like smartphones or most DAPs. Better hooked up to an amp with some power at high impedances.
 

Morpheus

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A quick question to @amirm

When looking at this plot:
View attachment 101579

we see that the distortion (@ 30Hz) has increased from 2.5% to 45% with EQ applied.
Would it be safe to assume that the average level in the bass, due to the +9dB bass boost (I use +3dB bass boost at 30Hz but lower the middbass hump) would result in 104dB SPL at around 30Hz ?
If so, when looking at the plot below one would expect to see around 5% distortion at 30Hz (which is as good as inaudible) and not 45%.
View attachment 101580
Where is this discrepancy originating from.

Not fully comparable but below my distortion measurement (hardware EQ) at 90dB SPL (so including bass boost)
View attachment 101585
It shows around 1.5% distortion (2nd and 3rd combined) at 30Hz.

Full disclosure, I own a pair of Drop's version, wich are supposed to be exactely the same, but then again only when they get measured here, with this set up, will we know for sure.
Amir's and others take on this phone puzzles me somewhat..To me if has always sound very full, with excellent bass extension, although not to the very end, say, from 40 downwards ( I hear no weakness up to on an electric bass lowest free string strum). That can be my ear canal or my auditory system on the whole (and I am talking nothing fancy amping them, laptops, and phones mostly) , but the thing is, this doesn't jive with the measurements, and perception of my own speakers vs these, for example. As I said, these phones always sound fuller, with more bass extension than my speakers, wich measured trough REW, show a better extension and some peaking on bass that has to be corrected with PEQ, and /FIR. Even when corrected to a +3-4 db shelf from 100 downwards the speakers sound noticeably leaner than fhe Senn's, but slightly lumpier on very low bass and clearly less clean, robust and effortless overall ( Kef reference 205 , amps are Hypex Fusions 503 in a 50 sqm room, )
I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as the majority here, but I remember reading how distortion and harmonics profile alters subjective perception of sound / loudness.
Could that explain that difference in perception, and shoudn't that be taken in account when you calculate scores, if this is altering the actual perception, not the raw, individual measurements..? If a leaner measuring transducer in the bass actually sounds consistently fuller there is something not being taken in account its seems to me, but these are just my two cents..Overall, will never part with these, may get another ( Senn HD 800s maybe?) ..Not the pinnacle, not perfect, but 90 percent there, at a cost every music lover can eventually get one, a classic in the best sense.
 
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Helicopter

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Thanks Amir! This is great to have. I am using HD6XX and assume they are about the same until we see 6XX here. I agree they feel cheap compared to headphones that cost 3X as much, but they obviously should. I don't want to open a can of worms here, but these seem like a better reference HP for comparisons than even HD800.

It is also amazing how broadly they appeal and how they suck people into the hobby. What a great product! I am thinking of amps that can drive them well for people who don't have a HPA yet, and tube amps like Bottlehead Crack and DV336SE that help bump the bass up. If you are not going to use proper-EQ for some reason, these tube products will actually synergize with these headphones, drawing people into the abyss.

Maybe Sennheiser deviated from their own 1993-ish preference curve because the sample or methods were only robust enough to make it a data point for their consideration rather than a guideline for design implementation. I don't think we know enough to jump to the conclusion they put their ears before their data. If there was some well-informed guessing involved, it is smart marketing to spin it as if less robust methods might have some hypothetical advantages; then they still look like they were doing things the best way possible, even if perhaps they were not.

I kind of expect the best planars to do better with EQ at some point, and the best dynamics to do better without it; open headphones usually need a bass boost that gets distorted less with planars, and the best dynamics like this have such good FR above 100Hz or so; this looks to be about +/- 2.5 dB from 92Hz-6.3kHz; incredible.
 

Robbo99999

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Thanks Amir! This is great to have. I am using HD6XX and assume they are about the same until we see 6XX here. I agree they feel cheap compared to headphones that cost 3X as much, but they obviously should. I don't want to open a can of worms here, but these seem like a better reference HP for comparisons than even HD800.

It is also amazing how broadly they appeal and how they suck people into the hobby. What a great product! I am thinking of amps that can drive them well for people who don't have a HPA yet, and tube amps like Bottlehead Crack and DV336SE that help bump the bass up. If you are not going to use proper-EQ for some reason, these tube products will actually synergize with these headphones, drawing people into the abyss.

Maybe Sennheiser deviated from their own 1993-ish preference curve because the sample or methods were only robust enough to make it a data point for their consideration rather than a guideline for design implementation. I don't think we know enough to jump to the conclusion they put their ears before their data. If there was some well-informed guessing involved, it is smart marketing to spin it as if less robust methods might have some hypothetical advantages; then they still look like they were doing things the best way possible, even if perhaps they were not.

I kind of expect the best planars to do better with EQ at some point, and the best dynamics to do better without it; open headphones usually need a bass boost that gets distorted less with planars, and the best dynamics like this have such good FR above 100Hz or so; this looks to be about +/- 2.5 dB from 92Hz-6.3kHz; incredible.
About the Target Curve they're after re Sennheisser at that time, if it helps any the HD600 are marketed by Sennheiser themselves as to be a Diffuse Field headphone. Remember reading it in the blurb that came with the headphone. They do however track the Harman Curve remarkably well.
 

PeteL

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Full disclosure, I own a pair of Drop's version, wich are supposed to be exactely the same, but then again only when they get measured here, with this set up, will we know for sure.
Amir's and others take on this phone puzzles me somewhat..To me if has always sound very full, with excellent bass extension, although not to the very end, say, from 40 downwards ( I hear no weakness up to on an electric bass lowest free string strum). That can be my ear canal or my auditory system on the whole (and I am talking nothing fancy amping them, laptops, and phones mostly) , but the thing is, this doesn't jive with the measurements, and perception of my own speakers vs these, for example. As I said, these phones always sound fuller, with more bass extension than my speakers, wich measured trough REW, show a better extension and some peaking on bass that has to be corrected with PEQ, and /FIR. Even when corrected to a +3-4 db shelf from 100 downwards the speakers sound noticeably leaner than fhe Senn's, but slightly lumpier on very low bass and clearly less clean, robust and effortless overall ( Kef reference 205 , amps are Hypex Fusions 503 in a 50 sqm room, )
I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as the majority here, but I remember reading how distortion ans harmonic profile alters subjective perception of sound and loudness.
Could that explain that difference in perception, and shoudn't that be taken in account when you calculate scores, if this is altering the actual perception, not the raw, individual measurements..? If a leaner measuring transducer in the bass actually sounds consistently fuller there is something not being taken in account its seems to me, but these are just my two cents..Overall, will never part with these, may get another ( Senn HD 800s maybe?) ..Not the pinnacle, not perfect, but 90 percent there, at a cost every music lover can eventually get one, a classic in the best sense.
There are many many reviews and measurments of this headphones, and the sub bass roll off is very well documented. To me the needed eq is a bit much, a 8 dB boost on a non linear-phase eq do start to sound quite colored to me.
 
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Helicopter

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About the Target Curve they're after re Sennheisser at that time, if it helps any the HD600 are marketed by Sennheiser themselves as to be a Diffuse Field headphone. Remember reading it in the blurb that came with the headphone. They do however track the Harman Curve remarkably well.

That is what I was thinking. They could very well come closer with the 500/600 series to the ASR curve or the optimal curve than their own curve at the time tracked. It may have made sense for them to trust their ears to improve things even though a more robust approach would have been to improve the quality of their curve with further scientific research and then use the curve. Whatever they did worked quite well. I attribute the bass below 90Hz as a limitation of the technology rather than them getting the curve they likely though was best.
 

Jimbob54

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That is what I was thinking. They could very well come closer with the 500/600 series to the ASR curve or the optimal curve than their own curve at the time tracked. It may have made sense for them to trust their ears to improve things even though a more robust approach would have been to improve the quality of their curve with further scientific research and then use the curve. Whatever they did worked quite well. I attribute the bass below 90Hz as a limitation of the technology rather than them getting the curve they likely though was best.

IIRC the "new" post Harman headphone curve 660 is similarly deficient below 100 hz so I'm guessing they consider building that bass into a stock model of this type of design isn't worth it for whatever the trade offs may be. Or, they take the view they are onto a winning formula with that stock sound so dont care!
 

Robbo99999

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That is what I was thinking. They could very well come closer with the 500/600 series to the ASR curve or the optimal curve than their own curve at the time tracked. It may have made sense for them to trust their ears to improve things even though a more robust approach would have been to improve the quality of their curve with further scientific research and then use the curve. Whatever they did worked quite well. I attribute the bass below 90Hz as a limitation of the technology rather than them getting the curve they likely though was best.
Yes, I think so, according to Oratory's measurements the HD600 tracks the Harman Curve more accurately than the Diffuse Field (even though they are marketed as Diffuse Field headphones):
Harman:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dm0m6u3s3b4zqzl/Sennheiser HD600.pdf?dl=0
Diffuse:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/upib5ztmte79qpl/Sennheiser HD600 (Diffuse Field).pdf?dl=0

So as you were alluding to, it could well be that even though they were basing some elements on the Diffuse Field, that through "ear tuning" development they ended up closer to the Harman Curve.

I agree about the sub 90Hz point you made, I imagine it's hard/impossible for open-backed headphones that don't contain any active processing (EQ) to follow a flat extended low bass response, let alone a Harman bass boost......but that's the beauty of EQ!
 

Jimbob54

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Sennheiser did make headphones with a Harman style bass boost (even worse than Harman) but made it a bit more lively/detailed by increasing the treble a bit too far. It wasn't an open headphone though that came close.

fr-hd250-ii.png


I don't know of many open headphones with a subbass boost close to Harman aside from the one below. Also a bit treble happy... but fixable.

HD681-2018-FR.png
You tease us. Those 2 being (especially the latter)? Is the latter a planar?
 

Tks

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It may have been answered in other reviews, but @amirm what eq plugin/app are you using?

Built-in from his Roon player.

Curious to see how the HD600 measure and what EQ you apply to them.
Tried your bass EQ for the HD650 on my HD600 and it definitely fills it out more, and may even be a tad too much. (This coming from a bass head)

They're all the same for all intents and purposes, one has a little more bass than the other, but they're all virtually the same when listening to them. The comfort though is a tad different with clamping forces and such.

I couldn't blind test which is which between 650 600 6XX, while the 660S was just a glorified build of the 58X to my ears which had the most bass (didn't really feel like bass, just felt a tad more muddy tbh). I can't fathom boosting lows on any of these, idk if it's placebo (didn't blind test "distortion after EQing tbh"), but I really don't like what comes out of these when I boost the lows, I go the opposite, and try to high pass filter anything out under 55Hz tbh.

I don't believe in "blind testing" headphones aside from identical SKUs seeing as how they all have different cups and external housing, so when you put them on to adjust them, they instantly give away what they are (we had to put tape on the parts I was going to be touching the headphones by, as to not give away which they were, and also had to avoid seeing the headphones at all as to not know which were which concerning clamp force.

Their HD800S headphone also suffers this bass distortion issue which leads me to believe all they're doing is constantly creating the same slight variation of the same old driver with some tuning here and there, and a new housing that does most of the "soundstage" heavy lifting due to cup size and shape incidentally. But it's obvious they don't take it deathly serious as they wouldn't have that idiotic treble rape spike, unexcusable in a $1,000+ headphone in my view.

For $150-$300, the 500-600 line from Senn are a good buy (honestly mostly due to the solid choice of weight and comfort, and not being morons making circular earcups, instead having a more ergonomic ovular shape). I'd really like to see them move on to planar's just to see if they got the chops of making something sonically exceptional, as their current crop is just "good" (the 800 is just bad, sorry). They have all the tools, yet I've seen their amps for example measure terribly. Doesn't look like they do an insane amount of validation, as I don't know how they could have something like that awful treble and horrendous sub bass distortion on their flagship line. They strike me as a company resting on it's laurels, not really moving much. Same old variations, nothing really new.
 

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solderdude

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Full disclosure, I own a pair of Drop's version, wich are supposed to be exactely the same, but then again only when they get measured here, with this set up, will we know for sure.

Why ?
1: There is production spread between HD650's
2: Amir's HD650 is many years old (mine is even older).
3: Sonarworks has measured many (possibly hundreds) of them and found differences between HD650's over the years (see SBAF post).
4: There are others that measured a few HD650's and there is definitely a production spread among them.
5: I have been told by someone that contacted Sonarworks and he claims he was told HD6XX do not measure exactly the same as HD650 from the same time period.
6: What makes it so that only Amirs setup is conclusive where there are more people around measuring with similar or the same setups ?


.To me if has always sound very full, with excellent bass extension, although not to the very end, say, from 40 downwards ( I hear no weakness up to on an electric bass lowest free string strum)

That's because a bass has higher overtones than the fundamental in most cases.
The HD650 is 50Hz 0dB (on my rig and to my ears) but is masked' a bit by the elevated upper bass/lower mids.
Amirs measurements appear to show more bass roll-off due to the Harman curve.
When EQ'ed to Harman bass you get more 'body' and 'impact' but not everyone prefers this.
It does sound warm, full and 'bassy' to me but not extended. With the EQ set as I do it (20Hz +5dB, 30Hz +3dB, 40Hz +1dB and the midbass hump removed it sounds extremely realistic to me. A pinch too warm in stock.
 
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