Sennheiser HD650 Review (Headphone)

[bobbooo]

Thanks so much.
Great work.... truly outstanding.
Thank you.
Looking for a replacement to be used while playing my Roland Fantom in case the ones I have failed, after so many years.

I didn't create the ranking list, Jaakko Pasanen did, who also developed AutoEQ. And the measurement data used for the ranking is from Oratory and Crinacle.

 

[Jimbob54]

Yes, I do think so.
If I hear a band playing, or play it myself, record it and hear it, I can tell very easily if the sound is fine or not.

I remember a friend inviting me to hear his equipment.
I hit play for Tchaikovsky's 1880.
His system made those canyons plain pistol shots.
Then he heard mine and he understood....while getting cover !!!

Not sure thats one we can measure and rank on.

 

[infinitesymphony]

The AutoEQ ranking list is purely based on sound quality (in particular, frequency response). When considering other aspects, Rtings is a decent resource.

Genuine question. Is there an accepted definition of "sound quality" when talking about transducers?

We have the same issue with headphone preference ratings that we have with speaker preference ratings -- they don't account for everything and they're heavily weighted toward a single metric.

The ratings we're talking about in these lists are based on how close the frequency response is to a specific Harman curve (or can be made so with EQ). If you don't like that curve, you're out of luck. If there are factors beyond raw frequency response that influence sound quality and perception, they are not taken into account. Big ifs.

 

[F1308]

I didn't create the ranking list, Jaakko Pasanen did, who also developed AutoEQ. And the measurement data used for the ranking is from Oratory and Crinacle.

My most sincere congratulations to them all.
Terrific.

 

[staticV3]

This isn't surprising at all. Oratory is the only one who uses the exact same coupler, on the same rig that Harman used for the measurements the preference formula was devised from. Rtings do not use an industry standard rig, and Crinacle uses a different coupler. Oratory is also a trained, qualified professional with a methodically precise measurement procedure. Then of course there's unit variation, which can be quite bad for some models. Oratory usually measures several units to account for this. For all these reasons his calculated Harman ratings will be the most accurate for a headphone you buy/own. AutoEQ's ratings are generally similar so the ranking order is mostly the same - I suspect the few discrepancies with Oratory's results are due to digitizing his pdfs instead of using the raw data, and/or differences in the number of data points used in the calculation. There's nothing nonsensical about a metric with the highest correlation (0.86) between headphone measurements and (double-blinded) listener preference that years of controlled scientific research has developed.

And yet, it's rarely oratory who seemingly manages to capture a headphone's frequency response the most accurately. At least to my ears and to those that have participated in the little project I'm running.

 

[bobbooo]

Genuine question. Is there an accepted definition of "sound quality" when talking about transducers?

Edit, you may mean as opposed to build quality etc?

Yes. There are two generally accepted definitions of good sound quality for transducers:

1. An accurate approximation of the sound produced by the monitors used by mastering engineers in the studio ('good speakers in a good room') i.e. preserving the artists' intent.

2. What is most preferred by listeners in controlled, double-blind studies.

Harman's research showed that for the majority of people, 1 and 2 coincide, with a 0.86 correlation.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Amir mentioned a potential upcoming review for the AKG K371:

Remind me please @amirm , which headphones have you tested that track the target pretty well in the bass frequencies?

None that I have published. But I have tested akg k371 and it does that.

These headphones were designed with the Harman curve in mind and track it closely. This review should shed some light on whether or not frequency response is the defining factor in what makes a pair of headphones sound good.

If it is, maybe we can all toss out our collections and get some SRH440s or K371s.

 

[Jimbob54]

Amir mentioned a potential upcoming review for the AKG K371:

These headphones were designed with the Harman curve in mind and track it closely. This review should shed some light on whether or not frequency response is the defining factor in what makes a pair of headphones sound good.

If it is, maybe we can all toss out our collections and get some SRH440s or K371s.

I've read things saying the 371 aren't for people with perfectly formed ears *

* big lugs

Which puts them out of the running for me if so. Even the HD 6xx ovals are marginally too snug.

 

[amirm]

This isn't surprising at all. Oratory is the only one who uses the exact same coupler, on the same rig that Harman used for the measurements the preference formula was devised from.

Haman 3D printed their own pinna and used that in their measurements. They do not yet have such for the one that GRAS has produced. So unless you specifically know that he has the Harman pinna, he doesn't have the exact coupler.

For benefit of others, the original GRAS pinna was stuff and stood quite proud of the ear. From Sean Olive's presentation:

So they built their own pliable one. Subsequent to that GRAS produced their own version of this but per above, we don't have the preference curve for it. Differences are probably not large but we better not auto-generate EQ against the Harman curve with high precision.

 

[amirm]

Oratory is also a trained, qualified professional with a methodically precise measurement procedure.

You keep saying this about him. What is his real name, where does he work, what is his title there, and what headphones has he been involved in? I know he works at some headphone ODM shop but that is the extent of what I have seen about him. That doesn't translates into what you are saying about him. What is his training for example? Listening? How did he get trained?

And what is "methodically precise" about his measurements? You know his protocol? Have a way of confirming it? How do you know precision is even possible?

The man has done a lot for headphone community so don't ruin that by exaggerating his contributions.

 

[infinitesymphony]

I've read things saying the 371 aren't for people with perfectly formed ears *

* big lugs

Which puts them out of the running for me if so. Even the HD 6xx ovals are marginally too snug.

Reviewers say the SRH440s have plasticky stock pads that are like putting your ears in a sauna. You're not willing to suffer for the sake of perfect art?

What's the most comfortable full-size headphone you've tried?

 

[Zensō]

What puzzles me about Amirs EQ. I believe he runs Roon through a RME ADI-2 dac. But, uses ROON eq instead of the ADI-2 EQ. Would be interesting were Amir to play ROON straight then EQ in the dac? Difference???

The main difference is that the RME only allows for 5 bands, whereas Roon allows for up to 10.

 

[Jimbob54]

Reviewers say the SRH440s have plasticky stock pads that are like putting your ears in a sauna. You're not willing to suffer for the sake of perfect art?

What's the most comfortable full-size headphone you've tried?

Easy. Hd800. Lcd with big velour pads (but not for so long as heavy)

 

[amirm]

For all these reasons his calculated Harman ratings will be the most accurate for a headphone you buy/own.

The only accurate ones are the ones that Harman has performed themselves. All others are approximation and need to be compared to Haman's database to see how accurate they are. I have seen Sean refer to a couple of his measurements but that is the limit of his endorsement that I have seen. As such, your declaration is without foundation.

I know with speaker measurements were were not able to match Harman's anechoic measurement used in their study to develop the preference scores. Same is current true of headphone measurements.

 

[maverickronin]

Easy. Hd800.

This.

It took a decade but I eventually gave in and bought a pair just for the comfort.

 

[Jimbob54]

This.

It took a decade but I eventually gave in and bought a pair just for the comfort.

This.

It took a decade but I eventually gave in and bought a pair just for the comfort.

I do find it hard to separate the sonics of HP from the comfort /fit. I'm sure some models languish in the cabinet because subconsciously I don't want to wear them, rather than me not liking their sonic attributes. I also suspect I write some off as sounding crap when in reality I think that because I dont enjoy the wearing experience that colours the experience of the sonics.

The perfect headphones feel great and sound great. The worst are ones you can't wear. Sounding a bit off is correctible.

 

[maverickronin]

I do find it hard to separate the sonics of HP from the comfort /fit. I'm sure some models languish in the cabinet because subconsciously I don't want to wear them, rather than me not liking their sonic attributes. I also suspect I write some off as sounding crap when in reality I think that because I dont enjoy the wearing experience that colours the experience of the sonics.

The perfect headphones feel great and sound great. The worst are ones you can't wear. Sounding a bit off is correctible.

The comfort certainly does color one's overall opinion of a headphone. OTOH I've sold a few headphones because of comfort issues even though I did like the sound of them.

I'm still waiting for Etymotic to make something that's actually wearable.

 

[Chuck S]

Love that Nils Frahm. (Spaces is also good.) Like Harold Budd (rip) on drugs.

 

[Jimbob54]

The comfort certainly does color one's overall opinion of a headphone. OTOH I've sold a few headphones because of comfort issues even though I did like the sound of them.

I'm still waiting for Etymotic to make something that's actually wearable.

I'll take deep and hard from the etys over some of the pinna pinching shelled iems anyday.

 

[Robin L]

I do find it hard to separate the sonics of HP from the comfort /fit.

Out of curiosity, have you heard/owned the Philips X2HR? I don't think my ears are mammoth, however I've had problems with over-ear headphones that didn't really cover everything, or had hard plastic resting against the ear. The Philips earpieces are the most capacious I can recall, sound decent, don't seem to require much power.