Yep. I also ordered TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero to experiment as alternative and have more isolation when needed.Thanks for saving me moneyI'll just get an iem then as an alternative.
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Sennheiser HD560S Review (Headphone)
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I bought that Crinacle Zero that Amir reviewed recently - I'm new to IEM's but I find them very impressive, I'd use them more but they're making my ears itch and one of my ears is sore after using them for a few days - I think IEM's are not for me, but I could still try the foam tips. So anyway, I recommend the Crinacle Zero as an excellent audio experience (minus the pain, which is an individual thing).Thanks for saving me money
I currently have the 99Classic, the 560S and the Sundara, the only jack of all trades is the 560S.Hey guys
New to the forum, been agonizing about which headphones to get for the past few weeks. Here's the skinny: I use headphones for both gaming and music, my budget would be up to $500 but ideally much much lower (think $200-$300 range) and I have a mixture of a NAD 325 BEE amp and Korg DS-DAC-100m (this thing: https://www.korg.com/us/products/audio/ds_dac_100m/), which generally drives my speaker setup. The problem I've heard is that neither the NAD nor the Korg are particularly good when it comes to headphone jacks, and therein we come to the crux of my problem. I cannot decide between multiple models, including Senn 560s's or 599s, Meze 99s (heavily eq'd per Amir's instructions), or something from the Sundara lineup OR Beyerdynamic TYGR 300-R's.
At the moment, I could get the TYGRs for 160e new, Senns for around 185e new (or pretty-much-brand-new 599s for 150e, which I guess is still a pretty bad deal), Hifiman 400SE's for 170e, Sundaras for around 300e hardly used, and Sundara Closed Backs for 360e pretty much new (just opened). Also pretty much untouched Meze Classics for 200e. I missed my chance on a 400e pretty-much-new version of the Edition XS cause the guy literally just changed his mind, which further makes me believe those are the best option by far on the list (he tried them and loved them but realized the open back design doesn't work with his current living situation - put them on sale and then immediately regretted it, lol).
My questions are this: 1) can all of these (esp the planar Hifimans) be driven reasonably on the setup I have? 2) Which would you suggest to someone who does like a slightly warmer sound and detailed mids but does like a punchy bass? I realize that doesn't go along with my preference for 560s, but I also do like my sound clean and relatively precise, which is why I also put the 599's in contention I guess?
Anyways, yeah, out of this list, could I run everything, and what, in your guys opinion is the best overall option? Should I just hold out or save up more money and go for the Edition XS even at full price or will an EQ'd Sundara or 560s or 400SE give me a close enough thing for much less money? Will they all be good for imaging and soundstage (another reason I prefer 560s cause I game a lot, too)? Are there any other good suggestions (maybe AKG K371)? Can the warm and comfortable Meze Classics do the job EQ'd since I've heard nothing but hate from audiophiles other than the bass performance?
Sorry for the huge post, and thanks in advance
PS the reason I mention getting used (or at least opened and listened to once or twice) headphones, which is generally a ****** idea to me, too, is that some brands are pretty damn hard to come by where I live new and would be ridiculously more expensive with the customs fees etc.
The Meze is the most coloured one, I would not recommend as your only headphone, it is very nice, in my opinion, but diverge too much from an objective presentation.
The HiFiMan and the Sennheiser are comparable on terms of quality, but for gaming and movies you will appreciate the 560S more due to punchier basses. Not to mention the peace of mind that the 560S offers in terms of comfort and peace of mind. With the Sundara you will have to pay more attention to how you toss them around, they are comfy but feels delicate, while the Sennheiser can sustain high levels of abuse
Eidolon
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Wow crazy how good this headphone is, then. I guess my biggest concern was just that I heard a lot of talk about how they lack spark and life compared to say the Sundaras (also Meze's I guess), but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least with EQ, then? Thanks again guys, I suppose my last Q would be, would you guys say to go for Amir's EQ, or are there any others you'd recommend, and what are the main differences? Frankly, I guess my biggest EQ objective would be taming the treble and boosting the bass, which I guess Amir already did, so that's my top pick at the moment.
Thanks again guys, I suppose my last Q would be, would you guys say to go for Amir's EQ, or are there any others you'd recommend, and what are the main differences? Frankly, I guess my biggest EQ objective would be taming the treble and boosting the bass, which I guess Amir already did, so that's my top pick at the moment.I use oratory with both AKG K371 and HD560S
The HD560S definitely have a bit less treble energy.
I reduce low shelf bass filter of HD560S by 3dB and it obviously makes the mids and treble pop a bit more.
I have HE400SE arriving tomorrow.
These are some of the 3 best measuring cans - closed, open and semi-open - that also happen to be affordable.
The HD560S definitely have a bit less treble energy.
I reduce low shelf bass filter of HD560S by 3dB and it obviously makes the mids and treble pop a bit more.
I have HE400SE arriving tomorrow.
These are some of the 3 best measuring cans - closed, open and semi-open - that also happen to be affordable.
Since they are almost a throwaway price I will try them as a 560 partner, and maybe as a final experiment to find out if Harman is for me since Harmanish has not sounded right in the past. The graph says too much bass and lower treble for the way my ears interact with iems. In general iems are too variable in sound with different tips and insertion depths, bore size, fit of housing, where with overears I hear other peoples assessment of them pretty closely.
I'd say go with Oratory1990's EQ, and then if necessary tweak the bass Low Shelf Level and a few of other user customisation filters to your best sound, following are the user customisation filters of the HD560s (this example may not be from his latest pdf though), so go on his reddit site & download the latest pdf for the HD560s, here are the customisation filters I was talking about:Wow crazy how good this headphone is, then. I guess my biggest concern was just that I heard a lot of talk about how they lack spark and life compared to say the Sundaras (also Meze's I guess), but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least with EQ, then?
Also, Oratory has measured a fair few HD560s samples now, so his measurement and EQ should be the best reflection you can get of Harman EQ for an HD560s.
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These are too bright with the Oratory EQ for me. The treble sounds very bright and almost too piercing on some instrumental and oriental music.
With Oratory's EQ applied, my own sample measures on my head, with in-ear mics, tilted a bit brighter in the 50-4000Hz range than some other headphones EQed to the same target, and with a small peak around 2kHz. Since I've only ever owned a single sample, difficult to know whether that is a case of sample variation or a coupling issue.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
It is more likely a difference between actual ears and a specific industry standard coupler (with averaged position measurements) for various headphones being the culprit here rather than sample variation.
HE400SE arrived.
Wow! Treble region much better than HD560S - comparing oratory1990 eq on both.
HE400SE is incredible value when you add EQ.
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In my EQ version where I use Oratory's EQ and then tune his customisation filters by ear I increase bass (Band 2) by +1dB. I've removed the Band 10 High Shelf (that's on 0dB). Band 4 (shoutiness) & Band 5 (timbral) I reduced by a tad under 1dB for Band 4 and a smaller reduction (token gesture) on Band 5. I also bumped up Band 9 (7000Hz) by around 1dB (or more), that one is not one of his customisation filters but it is a low Q wide filter though. I also put in a sharp Q6 notch at 8200Hz to reduce an element of harshness I was experiencing. So I suppose all-in-all I've reduced the brightness of the headphone a little in comparison to the stock Oratory EQ, apart from increasing the brightness by 1dB above 10kHz by removing his High Shelf there.
Which is a little similar to the EQ changes I made in his customisation filters.
In "Which?" Magazine UK's comprehensive review of 257 headphones, another Sennheiser, the HD599, comes top of the list. The HD560S score's as well for sound quality - both get 5 stars (highest possible score...) on all five factors covering sound quality. HD560S gets only one star for sound leakage, so better not be anywhere you can disturb anyone! HD599 does very slightly better with two stars.This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sennheiser HD560S. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $170.
View attachment 176556
I was taken aback by how light these headphones are. You can see it in this table relative to most of the others I have tested:
View attachment 176558
This doesn't give them feeling of luxury but sure are comfortable to wear given the large cups that are 73mm x 45mm. Drivers are mounted at an angle and have a maximum depth of 28 mm.
Note: The measurements you are about to see are made using a standardized Gras 45C. Headphone measurements by definition are approximate and variable so don't be surprised if other measurements even if performed with the same fixtures as mine, differ in end results. Protocols vary such as headband pressure and averaging (which I don't do). As you will see, I confirm the approximate accuracy of the measurements using Equalization and listening tests. Ultimately headphone measurements are less exact than speakers mostly in bass and above a few kilohertz so keep that in mind as you read these tests. If you think you have an exact idea of a headphone performance, you are likely wrong!
The cups fit my fixture's artificial ears easily.
Sennheiser HD560S Measurements
Let's start with our usual frequency response measurements:
View attachment 176559
This is very close compliance with our target response across a broad region which means it should not need to have equalization to sound good. That said, it does lack deep bass energy although not as much as some of the other Sennheiser headphones. And there is a bit of excess energy above 4 kHz. Combined, there may be a tad extra brightness to the sound.
Here is the relative response for purpose of developing EQ filters:
View attachment 176560
High frequency distortion is extremely low but bass distortion rapidly rises with level:
View attachment 176561
As noted, we are deficient in bass amplitude so when we boost it, you are looking at curves above the blue one. How much will be determined in listening tests.
Here is the absolute distortion level:
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Group delay shows the typical messiness in many headphones in lower treble and some spikes that serve as warning sign as far as trying to equalize the response at those frequencies:
View attachment 176563
Impedance is on the medium side and variable:
View attachment 176564
That should let you drive them better than the higher impedance Sennheisers like HD650 as the amplifier doesn't need as much output voltage. Still, some power is good as sensitivity is below average:
View attachment 176565
Sennheiser HD560S Listening Tests and Equalization
What you see (in measurements) is what you get. The HD560S is immanently usable without equalization. Yes, they are a bit bright but not annoyingly so at all. But we can improve on that with equalization by simply following our frequency response deviation graph:
View attachment 176567
Working from right, the two filters there are small but are enough to take the edge away from the highs. But then the sound can be a bit dull so I boosted the range with broad filter at 2580 Hz which improved spatial qualities. On female vocal, the voices now stood out more instead of being a bit sharp.
We then get to the pair of filters I use for bass to give a ramped increase to match the frequency response. This added some nice warmness and of course, a lot more bass. Alas, it is only usable at low to medium levels. Above that I could hear the left headphone clicking and eventually both drivers distorting. For everyday listening though, there was plenty of volume so I would go with these filters if you are not liable to crank up content with sub-bass response.
I did a final AB between EQ and no EQ and difference is small, once again proving the statement I made at the outset that EQ is not mandatory.
Conclusions
It is great to see another Sennheiser headphone nearly matching our target response and be easy to EQ. Combined with the light weight and low price, the HD560S made me happier after I tested it.
I am going to recommend the HD560S as is and more so with EQ.
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In the detailed write up there's a warning: "Maximum volume isn’t that high" for HD560S - that sounds similar to my HD650, which is why I bought a decent headphone amplifier. If you want to avoid the extra cost then check the HD599s specs... I don't know if they do any better than HD560S in this regard, but "Which?" didn't flag it up as a problem.
From the "Which?" report the HD599 and HD560S seem like very similar headphones. Would anyone recommend one above the other for sound quality? "Which?" doesn't consider more expensive headphones. Has anyone compared either of them to 6xx headphones?
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I dont know about "pleasant" but the frequency response for both shown here suggests your assessment isnt too far off. Warmer/woolier take your pic- I know I dont like too much in that 200hz area so wouldnt choose the 599.
Seriously don't buy the 599, they have a bad bump in the mid bass region which make it sound muffled and they lack spacial qualities. Even though they will sound better with the right PEQ, they won't match the qualities of the 560S without PEQ. FYI, I tried both and the 599 was on its way back to Amazon the next day.
That said, I don't know if it's my luck or rather the lack of it, but seems like Sennheiser has some troubles with quality control. Ordered a HD560S two weeks ago and sent it back because of driver mismatch (10% quieter in the left speaker). Got another set today and this time, the right speaker is roughly 10% quieter. I might give it a last chance, but if still problematic I guess I'll go for the HE400SE
That's bad luck, how do you know they were out of balance by 10%? I bought 3 units from 2 different vendors over a period of about a year or more and the variation between the units were tiny, as well as great channel matching:
Sennheiser HD560S Review (Headphone)
Thanks for you feedback. I'm also considering the HE400se as they are the same price as the HD560s where i live but I'm enclining more to HD560s due to better quality and the fact that i wanna also add a cheap tube amp to the setup in the future. Good luck. You can't go wrong with either...
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The 10% is not a precise measurement but just eyeballing it using the dampen effect from EQAPO. I read this thread before buying it and was really not expecting this mismatch. On the opposite, it seems AKG doesn't do good QC but my K702 bought in used condition had good driver matching (just a tiny variation at few frequencies which is fine). Here, these 2 HD560S are disturbing because the mismatch spans across a quite wide frequency range.That's bad luck, how do you know they were out of balance by 10%? I bought 3 units from 2 different vendors over a period of about a year or more and the variation between the units were tiny, as well as great channel matching:
These were all bought in the UK.Sennheiser HD560S Review (Headphone)
Thanks for you feedback. I'm also considering the HE400se as they are the same price as the HD560s where i live but I'm enclining more to HD560s due to better quality and the fact that i wanna also add a cheap tube amp to the setup in the future. Good luck. You can't go wrong with either...
Hmm, I think it is hard to guage channel balance without measuring it though, so I think it should be taken with a bit of a pinch of salt. How can you say that for your K702 that it has "just a tiny variation at few frequencies which is fine" - how can you know it varies at different frequencies without measuring it, and especially if you say they're "tiny variation"? If you're just listening to tones in a signal generator to try to guage variation at different frequencies then this is far from an accurate way to guage it, most largely because your hearing can have natural peaks & troughs throughout the frequency range that can vary from ear to ear.....each ear is not symmetrical in terms of the way it amplifies frequencies and additionally you can have hearing damage in one ear at some frequencies or even excessive wax build up in one ear.....that's not even to mention the subjective inaccuracies of trying to listen to two tones in left & right ear and then trying to decide if they are at the same volume or not. I'm not saying your HD560s does not have channel imbalance, but I'm saying you should be aware of the inaccuracies of trying to determine this using your ears alone (without measuring it), and you would have been very unlucky to have had two headphones in a row with poor channel matching. Like I said I've measured 3 units bought from 2 different retailers over a period of at least a year and they're all pretty much identical in channel matching & from unit to unit. Maybe it would be worth buying your next HD560s from a different retailer if you've not been happy with the two you received from the previous retailer.
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