Sennheiser 800 HD still the best neutral openback for $1000 used?

[solderdude]

Tiles of wisdom.
Quite popular in the Netherlands where it is called: Tegeltjeswijsheid

 

[Robbo99999]

Tiles of wisdom.

Ha, I know, but it's still "biblical"!

 

[IAtaman]

Something to keep in mind:

I am confused again - is there more than one Sean Olive or maybe I am missing a context of some sort?

Is Harman Target a preference target only or does it have any relation to perceived neutrality?

I think it is well established that flat bass in a headphone or in-room response of a loudspeaker is NOT neutral. We’ve had trained listeners draw the perceived spectral balance of these targets and they are perceived as not flat.
Toole spent 10 years having listeners rate loudspeaker based on perceived fidelity/neutrality. When we switched to preference, the loudspeakers ratings didn’t suddenly change. There is a high correlation between fidelity/neutrality/ preference.

Our headphone targets do not deviate significantly above 200 Hz from a anechoically flat speaker measured in our reference room at the DRP. For the AE/OE target it’s within 2 dB of the bass of the in-room speaker target. For the IE target it’s higher, but there are data to support it needs to be higher to be perceived as equivalent

 

[Phoney]

Hmm, ok, it's not usable then, if they're not using an industry standard fixture then we can't use their diffuse field compensated plots for anything. Seems a bit like pseudoscience for them to offer that graph, it's not usable to an official target like Harman nor a less official B&K 5128 target. Unless you for sure ask them they weren't using a GRAS or B&K 5128 to capture the data. But, you know, like I said in my earlier post, those high end Sennheiser should be super accurate in terms of low unit to unit variation, so therefore you don't need individual measurements - just use Oratory's measurements on his GRAS and/or also use his EQ's.

If you look at crinacles 3 samples and also oratory1990s sample, you would see that there are surely some variations. But I used all 4 in comparison to each other to figure out a general trend, and confirm/disconfirm each section of the response by ear.

 

[Phoney]

I am confused again - is there more than one Sean Olive or maybe I am missing a context of some sort?

Is Harman Target a preference target only or does it have any relation to perceived neutrality?

It started off as representing a neutral loudspeaker, but has later evolved into some adjustments which was made after doing extensive listening tests. So it's kind of a preference curve, but also close to "neutral".

 

[Robbo99999]

If you look at crinacles 3 samples and also oratory1990s sample, you would see that there are surely some variations. But I used all 4 in comparison to each other to figure out a general trend, and confirm/disconfirm each section of the response by ear.

It's harder to compare Crinacle vs Oratory because they have different measuring processes, albeit comparable rigs. If Crinacle saw variation using his own rig, then that is something to consider, providing he uses a consistent measurement method, which I suspect he does. In my experience Sennheiser are very hot on unit to unit variation, so you theoretically should have a good experience re using Oratory's measurement for instance. And I just looked at HD800s on Crinacle's website, he measured 3 units, they're all close together, so should be fine to rely on the Oratory EQ for instance, or Oratory measurement if you wish to EQ to another target.

 

[Phoney]

It's harder to compare Crinacle vs Oratory because they have different measuring processes, albeit comparable rigs. If Crinacle saw variation using his own rig, then that is something to consider, providing he uses a consistent measurement method, which I suspect he does. In my experience Sennheiser are very hot on unit to unit variation, so you theoretically should have a good experience re using Oratory's measurement for instance. And I just looked at HD800s on Crinacle's website, he measured 3 units, they're all close together, so should be fine to rely on the Oratory EQ for instance, or Oratory measurement if you wish to EQ to another target.

Sample 2 and 3 is very similar, so I based my EQ on those. Nr. 1 has a bit more deviation some places (more treble and less bass), but not so much.

 

[Robbo99999]

Sample 2 and 3 is very similar, so I based my EQ on those. Nr. 1 has a bit more deviation some places (more treble and less bass), but not so much.

It's true those two samples are closer. Well, you're not far wrong doing that, I don't think you need a customised measurement for your particular headphone for the reasons we discussed.

 

[jonfitch]

It really is.

The funny thing is el cheapo $20-100 headphones are generally very comfortable, no matter what the design is, because most of them have very little clamping pressure, on top of not weighing much. The typical el-cheapo headphone has about 0.25-0.5lb of clamping pressure, whereas “audiophile” headphones are much higher, while also being quite heavy on the head.

Even the HD800 has 0.75lbs of clamping pressure, but most other high end ones like Focal, Hifiman, or Audeze are sitting closer to 1.2-1.5lbs of pressure. As you get to the higher end of caliper pressure here it gets fatiguing over time, but that’s how these high end headphones achieve “bass slam”, by sealing the headphones so tight that they drain the blood from your face. This and the fact that these flagships tend to be very heavy is a 1-2 combo of discomfort.