Seeking streamer advice for Tidal but also Netflix, YouTube, etc.

[Audiotistic]

Maybe, read the specs of that streamer carefully. Having a streamer that 'supports Tidal ' isn't necessarily the same as one that allows Tidal Connect from another device.

I see what you're saying, thank you

 

[Audiotistic]

I'm not sure what you mean by "transport". Historically that term has been applied to a disc player (CD, DVD-A) where the feed is taken from digital outputs only and fed into a separate DAC that creates audible sounds.

Sample Rates Conversion is essential where sample rates don't match. Think of it as a car gearbox (although I hate car analogies). If you have a device such as many TV systems with a fixed sample rate of 48kHz, the TV itself performs the SRC function to upsample Redbook CDs digital feeds and downsample HiRez digital feeds. If you are feeding from say a laptop, you could instead use the (probably better) software SRC to do the sample rate conversion to 48kHz before feeding the TV system.

SRCs are everywhere these days now there's no longer a simple consistent standard. The first standalone DAC I had did not have an SRC and could ONLY handle RedBook bitstreams from a standard CD player or transport at 44/16

My apologies. I was referring to a streamer that does not have a DAC... Therefore only has digital outputs. What would that be called?

If, let's say your audio/video system has multiple devices with SRC, how would you go about making sure only the one you want to use gets used?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

My apologies. I was referring to a streamer that does not have a DAC... Therefore only has digital outputs. What would that be called

A streamer. Some have DACs and some don't.

If, let's say your audio/video system has multiple devices with SRC, how would you go about making sure only the one you want to use gets used

That's a tricky question. If all of your content is based on one and only sample rate, you can build a system dedicated to that. This is what the early days of transports and DACs were like.

What if you've got some files at 44 and some at 96kHz sample rate? Ideally, you have a high quality DAC at the end of the chain which supports these two sample rates and you preserve the file through your stack so that ONLY the DAC does something to the content. This requires your DAC to switch between sample rates, sometimes this can result in a pause or click sound. If you transport the content via other means, all bets are off

 

[Audiotistic]

A streamer. Some have DACs and some don't.

That's a tricky question. If all of your content is based on one and only sample rate, you can build a system dedicated to that. This is what the early days of transports and DACs were like.

What if you've got some files at 44 and some at 96kHz sample rate? Ideally, you have a high quality DAC at the end of the chain which supports these two sample rates and you preserve the file through your stack so that ONLY the DAC does something to the content. This requires your DAC to switch between sample rates, sometimes this can result in a pause or click sound. If you transport the content via other means, all bets are off

It's incredible how complex every aspect of this hobby is. Everything I "learn" confirms there are infinitely more things to learn lol. If I may ask... Once I purchase a streamer, the system will consist of the following:

Streamer
Apple TV
Projector
Trinnov Altitude
Amplifers
Mains
Subs

I do have a calibrator coming over to dial things in but he won't be coming for another 4 months because he's so busy Is there something I can easily look at to see if my SRC situation is optimized given the equipment I have?

 

[masterhw]

Streamer
Apple TV
…
Trinnov Altitude

I have no reason to believe any of these would introduce problematic SRC. Almost everything else, including production choices made in the studio before mastering, will influence playback a thousand times more. If you’ve achieved a reasonably good room calibration (which I’m sure the installer will help with), and your playback material is high bitrate lossy or completely lossless, you’ve done your part. Everything else is primarily of academic interest.

 

[Audiotistic]

In theory, provided you are using digital output from the shield it should, if competently designed, be audibly transparent i.e. as good an audio quality as any other streamer on the planet irrespective of price.

That said I haven't seen any measurements of the shield to know it actually works 'properly' and I have an inherent distrust of the design priority given to audio by any TV related product so maybe the shield does it properly, maybe like my old Panasonic TV it doesn't. You can get a dedicated streamer that has been tested here and provides transparent digital output very cheaply.

Both the Nvidia and Apple TV have HDMI but no coax or optical out... So maybe that's reason enough?... I don't know. Like you, I simply can't imagine either product is optimized for audio so I tend to agree a dedicated streamer seems like a better choice. It's just that some people adamantly believe there would be no improvement in sound quality and I was hoping to make this decision based on facts, not simply what I think would be best. Either way, I agree with your last statement and am sure I can't go wrong with a separate streamer tested/recommended by Amir. Thank you very much sir.

 

[Audiotistic]

I have no reason to believe any of these would introduce problematic SRC. Almost everything else, including production choices made in the studio before mastering, will influence playback a thousand times more. If you’ve achieved a reasonably good room calibration (which I’m sure the installer will help with), and your playback material is high bitrate lossy or completely lossless, you’ve done your part. Everything else is primarily of academic interest.

I see, thank you so much. Do you tend to agree a separate streamer (without a dac) would be an improvement over/above an Apple TV or Nvidia Shield assuming audio quality is the absolute priority?

 

[jcarys]

I use the Shield Pro for all of my audio and video streaming on my main home theatre system. It works fantastic and supports just about anything I want to throw at it. There is only one major difference between it and a dedicated music player like Wiim or any of the others, and that is that it plays back Tidal Atmos albums, whereas the others are limited to stereo. If that's important to you, then go with the Shield. If not, take your choice of the stereo devices. For movie streaming, I have found their app support for higher quality audio & video standards (DV, Atmos, etc.) is better than most TV apps.

 

[Audiotistic]

I have a Nvidia Shield Pro and TiVo 4k. The Nvidia's picture and audio are better than the TiVo; The Shield cost 5x the TiVo, too. Streaming devices vary in quality. I don't think you'll do much better than your Shield unless you go up to a dedicated expensive streamer.

Many of the High End companies make them; they are not cheap (think maybe 5-10X the Shield price). I have no personal experience with them. If you can somehow get away from HDMI audio and use the coax output, you might like the results better. The coax output from my BluRay plays clearer CD audio than the HDMI output. DIfferent protocols promise equal results but what's in the electronic signal chain does make a difference.

Bit of advice: use ethernet to feed your streamer, not wifi.

Yea, that's what I'm contemplating... A dedicated streamer of higher quality (using coax) as I can't help but believe the Apple TV and Nvida are simply mass produced products more focused on video with sound instead of focusing on what I'm seeking which is the highest possible level of sound quality. The streamers I'm looking at range from a couple hundered dollars to many, many thousands of dollars. The debate between the engineers and those who believe a "better quality" streamer is absolutely going to sound better is seemingly never going to end lol. And yes, everything is hardwired as you recommended

 

[Audiotistic]

I use the Shield Pro for all of my audio and video streaming on my main home theatre system. It works fantastic and supports just about anything I want to throw at it. There is only one major difference between it and a dedicated music player like Wiim or any of the others, and that is that it plays back Tidal Atmos albums, whereas the others are limited to stereo. If that's important to you, then go with the Shield. If not, take your choice of the stereo devices. For movie streaming, I have found their app support for higher quality audio & video standards (DV, Atmos, etc.) is better than most TV apps.

Have you by chance compared the audio quality of your sheild to a separate streamer of "higher quality" while still using the same dac for both? By that I mean a streamer that is at least a couple thousand dollars... Preferably closer to $15,000? I know it sounds ridiculous, believe me... But that's how crazy the debate of "what's best" is. To all that read this message: Please don't roast me for mentioning a $15,000 streamer. I know you think it's hogwash... I'm just using it as an example lol!

 

[masterhw]

Have you by chance compared the audio quality of your sheild to a separate streamer of "higher quality" while still using the same dac for both? By that I mean a streamer that is at least a couple thousand dollars... Preferably closer to $15,000? I know it sounds ridiculous, believe me... But that's how crazy the debate of "what's best" is. To all that read this message: Please don't roast me for mentioning a $15,000 streamer. I know you think it's hogwash... I'm just using it as an example lol!

Our resident tester Amir has tested cheapo
Chromecast digital outs, and the Raspberry Pi as a steamer. Both had identical performance to the $20,000 AudioPrecision tester, and used the DAC to full performance. We’re relatively fortunate in the digital domain, that (largely) either the bits get there or they don’t. There are no degrees of colouration/distortion/noise like the analog domain. Jitter and sample rate conversions are largely non-issues in systems from the past 15 years. Pure digital streamers/transports like the Eversolo T8 are cool audio jewelry, but practically will sound and measure identical to a basic digital source. In all cases, the DACs in your Trinnov and your power amps should be the dominating sources of noise and distortion. That’s not to disparage your gear choice, these are just the only parts of your chain in the analog domain.

 

[Audiotistic]

Our resident tester Amir has tested cheapo
Chromecast digital outs, and the Raspberry Pi as a steamer. Both had identical performance to the $20,000 AudioPrecision tester, and used the DAC to full performance. We’re relatively fortunate in the digital domain, that (largely) either the bits get there or they don’t. There are no degrees of colouration/distortion/noise like the analog domain. Jitter and sample rate conversions are largely non-issues in systems from the past 15 years. Pure digital streamers/transports like the Eversolo T8 are cool audio jewelry, but practically will sound and measure identical to a basic digital source. In all cases, the DACs in your Trinnov and your power amps should be the dominating sources of noise and distortion. That’s not to disparage your gear choice, these are just the only parts of your chain in the analog domain.

Agreed. Funny enough, when I messaged Amir about this topic he recommended the Eversolo. It did test REALLY well.

However, until either an engineer or someone in a fancy audio store provides a blind side by side "listening" test between a $200 streamer and a "high quality" streamer, I will always wonder. The conviction from the other side is just too strong. I don't believe they are ALL full of it or that placebo has ALL of them living in a false reality. Maybe there's an unexplainable factor that even scientists/engineers are not aware of... Or not lol.

In your opinion, will the Apple TV (HDMI only) provide the same level of audio quality as a separate streamer using SPDIF? If not, would an audio extractor possibly help? In the end, I need/want Apple TV for Netflix, YouTube, etc. and simply want to ensure there is no doubt the audio quality is as good as it can possibly be given the processor, amps and speakers I already have. Edit: Sorry, you did already answer this in an earlier message. I guess I was just hoping for 100% confirmation since so many people are hoping a new Apple TV comes out with audio passthrough which they believe will allow for better sound quality.

 

[kemmler3D]

Typically if you are using a digital output of a given device, there is zero cause for concern when it comes to actual sound quality. While there is maybe some cause for concern around sample rate conversion, it's generally done in a proper / transparent way.

Digital formats sometimes have outright failures that cause very obvious distortion (like the sample rate is wrong and it's NOT converted) but most of the time, you can just say "bits are bits" - a digital signal that isn't undergoing sample rate conversion will typically be 100.0% intact all the way from the internet to your DAC no matter how many digital devices sit in between.

until either an engineer or someone in a fancy audio store provides a blind side by side "listening" test between a $200 streamer and a "high quality" streamer, I will always wonder. The conviction from the other side is just too strong. I don't believe they are ALL full of it or that placebo has ALL of them living in a false reality.

Well, because of the above, I do think they're all full of it because placebo has taken hold of them.

DACs have varying levels of output quality, although most of the >$200 ones in today's market are totally innocent.

Streamers, if they are not also acting as a DAC or converting bit depth / sample rate, just download audio from someplace and spit it out through a port on the back. This is no different than a phone, WiFi router, computer, TV, or anything else. Bits are bits, whether those bits comprise your banking transactions, a Netflix video, this forum, or an audio stream.

Taking it one step upstream, the existence of "audiophile" ethernet cords and switches doesn't prove anything about digital audio. It proves that people are gullible and don't know how IP data transmission works.

The idea that a streamer (again, excluding the DAC section) could even HAVE a sound signature, let alone a better one because it's expensive, is incorrect. This is no different than asserting your Nvidia Shield will somehow have a warmer color temperature on the HDMI video output than a Roku or Apple TV. If that sounds stupid, then so does "expensive streamers sound smoother" or whatever.

 

[masterhw]

This is no different than asserting your Nvidia Shield will somehow have a warmer color temperature on the HDMI video output than a Roku or Apple TV.

you’re spot on for audio, but I would nitpick to say that differences like that do actually sometimes happen on video. there’s a lot more going on in video-land, with proprietary decoders and differing chip implementations, so a fair number of gremlins actually slip through (i.e. Shield TV’s red push).

 

[kemmler3D]

you’re spot on for audio, but I would nitpick to say that differences like that do actually sometimes happen on video. there’s a lot more going on in video-land, with proprietary decoders and differing chip implementations, so a fair number of gremlins actually slip through (i.e. Shield TV’s red push).

Fair and accurate, but in a sense we're talking about "Post-DAC" video at that point, so if we get really pedantic about it, the analogy still works, more or less.

My point is that if the audio hasn't been decoded or converted to analog, then there's no way the streaming device is going to change the sound quality in a subjective way, it will either work or not. At most you could look for increased noise in very specific, rare situations.

 

[Audiotistic]

Typically if you are using a digital output of a given device, there is zero cause for concern when it comes to actual sound quality. While there is maybe some cause for concern around sample rate conversion, it's generally done in a proper / transparent way.

Digital formats sometimes have outright failures that cause very obvious distortion (like the sample rate is wrong and it's NOT converted) but most of the time, you can just say "bits are bits" - a digital signal that isn't undergoing sample rate conversion will typically be 100.0% intact all the way from the internet to your DAC no matter how many digital devices sit in between.



Well, because of the above, I do think they're all full of it because placebo has taken hold of them.

DACs have varying levels of output quality, although most of the >$200 ones in today's market are totally innocent.

Streamers, if they are not also acting as a DAC or converting bit depth / sample rate, just download audio from someplace and spit it out through a port on the back. This is no different than a phone, WiFi router, computer, TV, or anything else. Bits are bits, whether those bits comprise your banking transactions, a Netflix video, this forum, or an audio stream.

Taking it one step upstream, the existence of "audiophile" ethernet cords and switches doesn't prove anything about digital audio. It proves that people are gullible and don't know how IP data transmission works.

The idea that a streamer (again, excluding the DAC section) could even HAVE a sound signature, let alone a better one because it's expensive, is incorrect. This is no different than asserting your Nvidia Shield will somehow have a warmer color temperature on the HDMI video output than a Roku or Apple TV. If that sounds stupid, then so does "expensive streamers sound smoother" or whatever.

Thank you for that. So maybe the SRC capability of the Apple TV is something I should research? From what I understand, the current model does not have audio passthrough which maybe is irrelevant or maybe affects the bit depth/sample rate or number of bits passing through it? It sounds like it pretty much has to be bit perfect unless it's broken if I'm understanding you correctly. In the end, I am just hoping to learn if the Apple TV can/will provide exactly the same audio quality as a separate streamer utilizing my dac.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thank you for that. So maybe the SRC capability of the Apple TV is something I should research? From what I understand, the current model does not have audio passthrough which maybe is irrelevant or maybe affects the bit depth/sample rate or number of bits passing through it? It sounds like it pretty much has to be bit perfect unless it's broken if I'm understanding you correctly. In the end, I am just hoping to learn if the Apple TV can/will provide exactly the same audio quality as a separate streamer utilizing my dac.

"Bit perfect" technically means the signal goes through untouched, the bits are simply fed in one end and out the other with zero changes.

Sample rate conversion typically happens at the DAC but can happen when the streamer can't output a certain resolution, if the connection doesn't support it, or for other reasons. And there is a possibility of introducing artifacts here, but I'll just say that it's typically done with no audible artifacts. There is also very little room for subjectively different audio quality, the artifacts tend to be introduced at the extreme upper limit of the treble and so don't impact normal listening.

Let me put it another way - you've very likely unknowingly heard the results of sample rate conversion all the time if you're listening to any audio on computers at all. If SRC was really problematic in normal usage, you would have noticed by now.

I think if you want peace of mind you can look into how the Apple TV handles digital audio output, sample rate conversion, and so on. But there are always bigger sound quality fish to fry than the streamer.

 

[antcollinet]

Very interesting. Thank you for your explanation! On a more simple level, I am just trying to understand if the Nvidia Shield lessens the audio quality compared to a stand alone transport (price/quality of your choosing).

I don't have a shield - but if it lessened audio quality this would be :

1 - Highly unusual
2 - Widely known about.

Digital audio devices that are properly designed, especially with a digital output (toslink/spdif/HDMI) are audibly perfect. You can safely use your shield confident that it is giving sound as good as any other device at any price.

 

[Audiotistic]

I don't have a shield - but if it lessened audio quality this would be :

1 - Highly unusual
2 - Widely known about.

Digital audio devices that are properly designed, especially with a digital output (toslink/spdif/HDMI) are audibly perfect. You can safely use your shield confident that it is giving sound as good as any other device at any price.

Thank you

 

[Audiotistic]

"Bit perfect" technically means the signal goes through untouched, the bits are simply fed in one end and out the other with zero changes.

Sample rate conversion typically happens at the DAC but can happen when the streamer can't output a certain resolution, if the connection doesn't support it, or for other reasons. And there is a possibility of introducing artifacts here, but I'll just say that it's typically done with no audible artifacts. There is also very little room for subjectively different audio quality, the artifacts tend to be introduced at the extreme upper limit of the treble and so don't impact normal listening.

Let me put it another way - you've very likely unknowingly heard the results of sample rate conversion all the time if you're listening to any audio on computers at all. If SRC was really problematic in normal usage, you would have noticed by now.

I think if you want peace of mind you can look into how the Apple TV handles digital audio output, sample rate conversion, and so on. But there are always bigger sound quality fish to fry than the streamer.

Thank you so much