Seeking recommendations: Best active speakers for $10k/pair? (Would also be offered for measurement.)

[echopraxia]

Yeah I’m still looking around trying to learn exactly what kind of bolts screw into each adapter / base plate etc. Looks like those K&M stands cost $800/pair here in the US anyway, so I should keep looking a bit in case I find a better priced option that still looks decent (i.e. without too large levers etc. sticking out of the pole).

I might even do better to find any generic stand that is priced well and looks good, and somenow stick the flat Genelec base plate onto it with putty or something.

 

[bunnyfuzz]

Genelec W371A's

https://www.genelec.com/w371a

 

[echopraxia]

Genelec W371A's

https://www.genelec.com/w371a

View attachment 65020

We have a winner! By far the best stand option right here. Now let me go sell my car, brb...

Maybe some other time in the future. But it’s hard for me to imagine anything justifying the price of those.

 

[Sancus]

Looks like those K&M stands cost $800/pair here in the US anyway, so I should keep looking a bit in case I find a better priced option that still looks decent (i.e. without too large levers etc. sticking out of the pole).

I just buy all my K&M stuff from thomann.de, f ex even with shipping you'd only pay ~$450 for the pair. Shipping does take a while -- like 4-5 weeks or so -- but that's the only downside. Most NA vendors seem to mark up the K&M stuff a lot, it's silly.

 

[echopraxia]

I just buy all my K&M stuff from thomann.de, f ex even with shipping you'd only pay ~$450 for the pair. Shipping does take a while -- like 4-5 weeks or so -- but that's the only downside. Most NA vendors seem to mark up the K&M stuff a lot, it's silly.

Sounds good, that price is good enough that I think I’ll go with that then. BTW, do you know if any additional adapters are necessary for the K&M 26791?

Genelec’s website seems to say this is the only compatible base-plate with the 8351B: https://www.genelec.com/accessories/accessories/8051-408-stand-plate

Will the K&M 26791 work directly with this? Or are there any other adapters I’d need?

 

[Sancus]

Sounds good, that price is good enough that I think I’ll go with that then. BTW, do you know if any additional adapters are necessary for the K&M 26791?

Genelec’s website seems to say this is the only compatible base-plate with the 8351B: https://www.genelec.com/accessories/accessories/8051-408-stand-plate

Will the K&M 26791 work directly with this? Or are there any other adapters I’d need?

I don't think that base plate will work. I believe it's intended for mounting on microphone stands with a 3/8" thread. As far as I can tell, there are two K&M adapters for the 26791. The 26792, which basically just gives you a flat surface, and the 26793 which gives you a standard-ish 35mm pole for PA speakers and other adapter clamps like the 19780.

Honestly the easiest way to figure out the best way to mount is just to email [email protected] -- they responded in less than 24h the last time I asked them a mounting question.

 

[echopraxia]

I don't think that base plate will work. I believe it's intended for mounting on microphone stands with a 3/8" thread. As far as I can tell, there are two K&M adapters for the 26791. The 26792, which basically just gives you a flat surface, and the 26793 which gives you a standard-ish 35mm pole for PA speakers and other adapter clamps like the 19780.

Honestly the easiest way to figure out the best way to mount is just to email [email protected] -- they responded in less than 24h the last time I asked them a mounting question.

The photo of the base plate seems to show the same two holes (in addition to the 3/8” thread hole) as the other base plate that was linked here. I’m pretty new to pro audio stands: is this the standard mount used for speakers? I can’t even tell what fasteners are used for the K&M stands — their website doesn’t seem to have any specs of photos of the top of the stand. Perhaps I should also contact Genelec to confirm if this will work.

 

[Sancus]

The photo of the base plate seems to show the same two holes (in addition to the 3/8” thread hole) as the other base plate that was linked here. I’m pretty new to pro audio stands: is this the standard mount used for speakers? I can’t even tell what fasteners are used for the K&M stands — their website doesn’t seem to have any specs of photos of the top of the stand. Perhaps I should also contact Genelec to confirm if this will work.

Ah you're right, maybe those two holes will mount to that stand. It's very confusing. Those holes are not mentioned or shown in the diagrams in the user manual for that plate. And some of the vendors show the plate without those holes. So no idea if they are a new addition or what.

Perhaps @Ilkka Rissanen can answer these questions, otherwise yeah I'd email Genelec.

 

[echopraxia]

Ah you're right, maybe those two holes will mount to that stand. It's very confusing. Those holes are not mentioned or shown in the diagrams in the user manual for that plate. And some of the vendors show the plate without those holes. So no idea if they are a new addition or what.

Perhaps @Ilkka Rissanen can answer these questions, otherwise yeah I'd email Genelec.

Yeah this is too ambiguous; aside from someone knowing who has already solved this, I expect I’ll need to contact Genelec.

 

[bunnyfuzz]

The Genelec bearing plates do all kinda look the same, but in different sizes. Just like all the 8000 Series speakers can be mistaken for each other in photos if you can't gauge their actual size.

I believe that only the Genelec bearing plates that fit the 8X5X and the 8X6X have the additional two mounting holes in them, to accommodate K&M's Design stands.

Here is a photo of the top fitment of the K&M 26791 Design stand showing how the bearing plate would secure to it. The central ⅜" screw hole in the bearing plate would not be used for any mounting function on this stand.

 

[stevenswall]

There was another member here who had both the 8351B and the 8260A side by side in his home for a few weeks and ended up choosing the 8351B.

Do you have a link? Tried searching for it. I'm surprised at how much the 8351B is improved with the smoother off axis roll off, and would also likely prefer that plus a sub if it were not cost prohibitive. Maybe in 10 years I'll have to think about and upgrade. (Especially if the W371 magically goes down to $3k or so.)

 

[aac]

Sounds good, that price is good enough that I think I’ll go with that then. BTW, do you know if any additional adapters are necessary for the K&M 26791?

Genelec’s website seems to say this is the only compatible base-plate with the 8351B: https://whttps://www.k-m.de/cdn/installation_instructions/int/26791-000-56.pdfww.genelec.com/accessories/accessories/8051-408-stand-plate

Will the K&M 26791 work directly with this? Or are there any other adapters I’d need?

On the page 3 of the manual is a chart of accessories for the 26791 and the plate you need is there.
https://www.k-m.de/cdn/installation_instructions/int/26791-000-56.pdf
It even gives a range of acoustic axis heights
From manual of konig meyer plate https://www.k-m.de/cdn/installation_instructions/int/26792-024-56.pdf it is screwed with two holes that are visible on genelec product page photo (manual for genelec plate for some reason do not describe that method).

You can ask K&M or genelec if you doubt or watch more closely in the manuals but it looks like it works with just two of those items.

 

[bunnyfuzz]

Good info from aac's post. Acoustic Axis using this stand with the 8351 is 888-1288mm.

 

[richard12511]

Do you have a link? Tried searching for it. I'm surprised at how much the 8351B is improved with the smoother off axis roll off, and would also likely prefer that plus a sub if it were not cost prohibitive. Maybe in 10 years I'll have to think about and upgrade. (Especially if the W371 magically goes down to $3k or so.)

I think it was in 8341a review thread? Too tired to look right now.

Personally, I think I would prefer the 8260. It goes a bit louder, digs a bit deeper, and I'm usually just sitting down while listening to music, so the inferior vertical dispersion isn't a huge deal for me.

I think the W371 is really overpriced. It's more than double what I would be willing to pay. $7,000 is way too much for a sub with a -6db of 23hz and 120db max output. If I were someone who was forced to put the subs up right next to(or under) the speakers, I might consider them, as the cardioid pattern and 500hz upper extension could be quite valuable depending on your mains. I live alone, though, and I don't care about aesthetics, so I can run 4 subs and put them wherever I want.

 

[q3cpma]

I think it was in 8341a review thread? Too tired to look right now.

Personally, I think I would prefer the 8260. It goes a bit louder, digs a bit deeper, and I'm usually just sitting down while listening to music, so the inferior vertical dispersion isn't a huge deal for me.

I think the W371 is really overpriced. It's more than double what I would be willing to pay. $7,000 is way too much for a sub with a -6db of 23hz and 120db max output. If I were someone who was forced to put the subs up right next to(or under) the speakers, I might consider them, as the cardioid pattern and 500hz upper extension could be quite valuable depending on your mains. I live alone, though, and I don't care about aesthetics, so I can run 4 subs and put them wherever I want.

The W371A is overpriced, but it's not a sub. Which is why comparing it to subs doesn't really work; compare it to something like half a Beolab.

 

[richard12511]

The W371A is overpriced, but it's not a sub.

I think many would disagree with this, but I agree with you here. I see them more as a "tower upgrade" for the Genelec bookshelves like the Ones. If you want the 500hz extension(which is awesome), then you're forced to co-locate them with your R/L mains. You're essentially turning your 8351Bs into 8351BTs .

They're definitely still overpriced, but I think that level of markup is pretty standard in the industry when it comes to the tower vs bookshelf models in the same series. It's not uncommon for the tower to be double the price of the same series bookshelf, and all you really gain is a few db more output and a more extension, and often times the measurements are actually worse.

Given the 500hz extension, I agree that it's unfair to compare it to traditional subs. However, if you do, then 23Hz(-6db) and 120db max output for $7,000 is quite expensive when you have competition like the JTR 4000 with 12Hz(-3db) and 128db max output for $3,600.

 

[Sancus]

Well the W371A isn't omni like a sub, it provides controlled directivity all the way down to ~50hz. Whether or not that's a functionality you care about is another story, but it is qualitatively different in quite a major way.

It basically makes any Genelec Ones similar in capability to a D&D 8C, with much much more output. The fact that that combination ends up about 50% more expensive(even more in the US) than the 8C though is definitely the problem. But it's not completely ridiculous.

 

[echopraxia]

Well the W371A isn't omni like a sub, it provides controlled directivity all the way down to ~50hz. Whether or not that's a functionality you care about is another story, but it is qualitatively different in quite a major way.

It basically makes any Genelec Ones similar in capability to a D&D 8C, with much much more output. The fact that that combination ends up about 50% more expensive(even more in the US) than the 8C though is definitely the problem. But it's not completely ridiculous.

The Dutch and Dutch 8C is about $12k/pair in the US. The Genelec W371A appears to be $18k/pair, and that’s not including a $6-$10k pair of Genelec 83x1s (depending on model). So total for the Genelec tower system would be around $24k - $28k, which is pretty extreme I think.

I certainly don’t see that as “worth it”, especially when unlike “The Ones” from Genelec there’s less of a clear picture what makes the W371A’s so exceptional and irreproducible vs other options. In contrast, there is absolutely no way I or anyone else I know of could DIY a speaker that measures as well as the 8351B, due to its relatively exotic design.

BTW I’m still a little unclear on what benefits the W371A’s offer that you wouldn’t get from a pair of much cheaper Genelec subs, for example. What’s the point of crossing over closer to 500hz when a Genelec 8351B presumably has plenty of SPL power at 100hz already? What exactly does “controlled directivity” mean for the W371A anyway, when I thought bass is inherently unavoidably more omnidirectional? And even so, what are the benefits here from the W371A that are not achieveable with a sub?

 

[Sancus]

The Dutch and Dutch 8C is about $12k/pair in the US. The Genelec W371A appears to be $18k/pair, and that’s not including a $6-$10k pair of Genelec 83x1s (depending on model). So total for the Genelec tower system would be around $24k - $28k, which is pretty extreme I think.

Yeah I've said before I don't really understand Genelec pricing in the US. It seems to be marked up 30-40% just because they assume US buyers are willing to pay more, I guess? I dunno. In Canada a pair of W371A + 8351B would come to ~$19000 USD. Which is almost exactly 50% more than $12,500 for the D&D 8C(they're not any cheaper here).

I certainly don’t see that as “worth it”, especially when unlike “The Ones” from Genelec there’s less of a clear picture what makes the W371A’s so exceptional and irreproducible vs other options. In contrast, there is absolutely no way I or anyone else I know of could DIY a speaker that measures as well as the 8351B, due to its relatively exotic design.

BTW I’m still a little unclear on what benefits the W371A’s offer that you wouldn’t get from a pair of much cheaper Genelec subs, for example. What’s the point of crossing over closer to 500hz when a Genelec 8351B presumably has plenty of SPL power at 100hz already? What exactly does “controlled directivity” mean for the W371A anyway, when I thought bass is inherently unavoidably more omnidirectional? And even so, what are the benefits here from the W371A that are not achieveable with a sub?

I agree it's a heavy premium to pay for the capability. But no, bass isn't unavoidably more omnidirectional. It's just HARDER to make it directional. As for why you'd want it, well, I'll leave that to our own @napilopez's descriptions of the benefits of cardioid bass in the D&D 8C. The alternative to good performing bass would be 2-4 subwoofers, but that wouldn't help you much with issues in the 200-500hz region, whereas the W371A can most likely make that whole region just about perfect out of the box.

As for SPL, it really just depends how much you need. If you refer back to our old S&R THD diagram of max SPL, while the 8351B is improved I'm sure it shows the same pattern. The Ones are limited most by the region under 100hz but ALSO by the region between 100-500hz. The vast majority of energy in music is around this region, and the 8351B already has quite a beefed up tweeter, so above 2.8khz has plenty of headroom.

So to truly remove the woofer limitations entirely and enable 110dB+ output across the whole range, you'd want a W371A, not just a subwoofer.

Do YOU need any of this? Probably not. But it is very very different from what subwoofers can do.

 

[richard12511]

The Dutch and Dutch 8C is about $12k/pair in the US. The Genelec W371A appears to be $18k/pair, and that’s not including a $6-$10k pair of Genelec 83x1s (depending on model). So total for the Genelec tower system would be around $24k - $28k, which is pretty extreme I think.

I certainly don’t see that as “worth it”, especially when unlike “The Ones” from Genelec there’s less of a clear picture what makes the W371A’s so exceptional and irreproducible vs other options. In contrast, there is absolutely no way I or anyone else I know of could DIY a speaker that measures as well as the 8351B, due to its relatively exotic design.

BTW I’m still a little unclear on what benefits the W371A’s offer that you wouldn’t get from a pair of much cheaper Genelec subs, for example. What’s the point of crossing over closer to 500hz when a Genelec 8351B presumably has plenty of SPL power at 100hz already? What exactly does “controlled directivity” mean for the W371A anyway, when I thought bass is inherently unavoidably more omnidirectional? And even so, what are the benefits here from the W371A that are not achieveable with a sub?

The D&D is actually $9k if you can accept Genelec quality looks

The benefit of setting a crossover above 100hz is that you can get much more max output out of your 8351Bs. The disadvantage of crossing over that high is that it forces you to place your subs in the same spot as your mains, but this is where the cardioid design comes in and makes that much less of a downside.

Bass is not "unavoidably omnidirectional". As someone who used to work with many pro Yamaha and QSC cardioid subs, bass directivity is absolutely controllable. Whether or not cardioid dispersion is a positive depends on the number of subs you can buy, and the placement flexibility that you have. With a single sub, I highly doubt any omni sub can touch the sound quality of a cardioid sub like the W371A. Two omni subs can sound better(and output and extend more) than two W371A, but only if you have complete placement freedom. Two W371As co-located with the L/R mains will sound better than 2 cost no object omni subs co-located with the L/R mains. 4+ subs is where cardioid bass dispersion really starts to lose its value imo. 4 JTR 4000ULFs would equal 4 W371As in terms of sound quality, while completely annihilating them in terms of output and extension, all while costing $22,000 less.