Search for a compact subwoofer, SVS 1000 Pro or Kali WS 6.2?

[Mort]

I don't get all your points...

You aren't the only one. At least we know it's not AI.

 

[pehu63]

You aren't the only one. At least we know it's not AI.

What I am getting at the following. Take your genelec 8361/8351, insanely good speakers.
Now check the specs, the genelec docs state lower than 0.05% harmonic distortion. SINAD barely at 70db.
In this forum, this ends up in a huge "NOT RECOMMENDED". Yet, insanely good speakers.

When optimizing for the entire chain, 0.01% or even 0.1% harmonic distortion is not relevant, compared to speaker distortion.
Why spend 100's or 1000's of dollars on DAC and/or amp, while the bottleneck is the speaker and room acoustics?
A good enough dac chip costs a few dollars, and real good class D amplifier is less than 10 dollar, e.g. TPA3255.

Broadly not understood, active speakers avoid high production tolerances, typical for passive crossovers.
And mind you, proper cross-over is critical for good spinorama.
Separate amplifiers also avoids intermodulation distortion across amps.

From the genelec teardown, I guess that the amp chips are IRS2092S, with separate power MOSFETS.
For the 8030 and 8330, distortion is even worse, yet not relevant compared to speaker distortion. TPA3118.

And that is my point, optimize end-to-end. Money spent on expensive DAC or amp cannot be spent on speakers.
So, insanely good amp or dac, it is just counterproductive. Put your dollars elsewhere for good sound.

 

[Mort]

Now check the specs, the genelec docs state lower than 0.05% harmonic distortion. SINAD barely at 70db

Where do the Genelec specs say this?

In this forum, this ends up in a huge "NOT RECOMMENDED".

Both those speakers were recommended.

Why spend 100's or 1000's of dollars on DAC and/or amp, while the bottleneck is the speaker and room acoustics?

Most people don't. The first recommendation is always invest in speakers.

You aren't wrong that this forum salivates at the latest amps and DACs that perform well. However, most are low cost and affordable. More amps and DACs get reviewed because they are easier to ship and test. Don't mistake that for ignorance about speakers and room acoustics.

And that is my point, optimize end-to-end.

That was quite a circuitous route to get to such a banal point, but few would disagree with you.

 

[Shrek6]

The new WiiM Sub is very compact and wireless, should play well with your WiiM Ultra. The Kali seems to be excellent as well but it’s pretty tall

Rationalize, symmetrical firing, so no contact sound, keeping neighbors happy.

Explain?

 

[just1n]

I do not hear anything wrong so far. When pausing, silent. After 10 minutes, my home automation switches the kali off. When streaming starts, HA switches on the kali, the kali takes up to 5 seconds to wake up. With my phone, I can toggle the footswitch (esp32), sound changes, deep bass gone, bit higher bass is stronger. Soon, I will do some more REW measurements, with footswitch on/off. For now, I am totally happy with genelec/kali. But first, I will add the PCM5102 to my Arylic pro DIY streamer. Arylic stuff is burnt down to the ground on this forum, but sound is just great.

Hmm, and I tend to listen to the music, background noise just means you're not dead yet......

What do you use for the home automation switch? Trying to work up a solution myself.

 

[Miguelón]

The new WiiM Sub is very compact and wireless, should play well with your WiiM Ultra. The Kali seems to be excellent as well but it’s pretty tall

So tall that I use it as a table for my WiiM: is solid as a rock, no vibration at all on the enclosure


Thanks for your recommendation: I considered the WiiM Sub as a good option with the Kali, the SVS 1000 Pro and some others.

My final choice sounds quite good, but unfortunately has an issue in the LFE mode that was discussed here in ASR (high self noise, peaked at 170 Hz and audible since 3 meters, not present in the by default crossover mode).

I’m hesitating to return it, apparently is an issue that is not yet fixed by Kali, so highly probable will be present on the replacement unit…

It works fine when using the classical path:

WiiM Ultra RCA stereo output => Kali WS 6.2 RCA 80 Hz stereo input => Kali WS 6.2 XLR stereo output => Genelecs G Three XLR stereo input.

But with this path I cannot play with the delay or the crossover freq.

Since the placement is close to speakers, probably not need for significant delay, and apparently sounds fine at 80 Hz…

Any advice?

 

[pehu63]

What do you use for the home automation switch? Trying to work up a solution myself.

I have home assistant with all kinds of esp32 and zigbee and 433.92mhz.
My home assistant detects the streaming, and switches on power via a 433.92mhz switch.
For the footswitch, I used https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005005599324679.html
With esphome builder, you can create an image, and flash with it with https://web.esphome.io
Parts of my config file, also works without home assistant on the web interface directly:

switch:
- platform: gpio
pin: GPIO16
name: "ESP32 Relay"
id: ESP32_relay

web_server:
port: 80

 

[pehu63]

So tall that I use it as a table for my WiiM: is solid as a rock, no vibration at all on the enclosure


Thanks for your recommendation: I considered the WiiM Sub as a good option with the Kali, the SVS 1000 Pro and some others.

My final choice sounds quite good, but unfortunately has an issue in the LFE mode that was discussed here in ASR (high self noise, peaked at 170 Hz and audible since 3 meters, not present in the by default crossover mode).

I’m hesitating to return it, apparently is an issue that is not yet fixed by Kali, so highly probable will be present on the replacement unit…

It works fine when using the classical path:

WiiM Ultra RCA stereo output => Kali WS 6.2 RCA 80 Hz stereo input => Kali WS 6.2 XLR stereo output => Genelecs G Three XLR stereo input.

But with this path I cannot play with the delay or the crossover freq.

Since the placement is close to speakers, probably not need for significant delay, and apparently sounds fine at 80 Hz…

Any advice?

In my mind, the 85hz in the kali is just perfect for the genelec 8030. Going lower costs quality and SPL.
I have my genelecs straight on a 3/8 inch mic pole with the thread in the base. Removed the rubber base base plate
I find that much better looking.

My ears cannot hear difference of the polarity switch on the kali, yet REW detects a very narrow and deep trough at 85hz in one position.
This seems compatible with the harman research, such a narrow gap is not audible. Switched it back, no audible difference.

 

[pehu63]

Where do the Genelec specs say this?

You can find the specs in the operating manual at https://www.genelec.com/8351b
Same for 8340, 8331, 8341, 8361. Genelec seems very trustworthy to me, publish spinorama as well.

Most people don't. The first recommendation is always invest in speakers.

Agreed. I do know quite a few fanatics with expensive hypex/purifi/NAD/marantz, with crappy speakers, and loving vinyl....

You aren't wrong that this forum salivates at the latest amps and DACs that perform well. However, most are low cost and affordable. More amps and DACs get reviewed because they are easier to ship and test. Don't mistake that for ignorance about speakers and room acoustics.

That was quite a circuitous route to get to such a banal point, but few would disagree with you.

Maybe for you and me, but it seems that aficionados go for the 0.001% and lower.
Just check the evidence at genelec. And 0.05% translates into 66db with my calculator. And yet, insanely good.

So, what is the influence of 0.05% harmonic distortion on the preference rating?
And that is far from trivial or banal. My guess is, not relevant, but no double-blind-evidence.
Intermodulation is quite a different beast.

 

[Mort]

You can find the specs in the operating manual at https://www.genelec.com/8351b

They don't publish SINAD which you said was 70. I'm wondering where that number comes from.

 

[pehu63]

Rationalize, symmetrical firing, so no contact sound, keeping neighbors happy.

Explain?

The kali has two chassis, firing in opposite direction. As a result, there is no mechanical movement in cabinet.
It is front ported. My previous ADAM t10s had a down firing chassis. This results in contact sound.

 

[pehu63]

They don't publish SINAD which you said was 70. I'm wondering where that number comes from.

Well, I guess you missed the part in the PDF that states THD 0.05% at nomimal power

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn055a4v/2ZKpxBBNLpZPVKPCZ2KjPY/f5d3efb3d781953364443286ab27d0a0/8351B_operating_manual_rev_b.pdf

My calculator says "log(100/0.05)/log(10) * 20" --> 66db
For refence, 0.01% translates into 80db, while 0.1% is 60db.

Also a statement on THD of the entire monitor.

 

[Mort]

That's not SINAD. Missing noise.

But we are far off topic and the discussion is not helpful.

 

[pehu63]

That's not SINAD. Missing noise.

But we are far off topic and the discussion is not helpful.

SINAD cannot be lower than THD. So, you agree that 0.05% (66db) is more than good enough?
Now, read all those reviews, 66db is nothing but heresy on this forum ;-)
The TPA3118 in my genelec 8030c does not even make to 60db, yet insanely good, with the kali ws6.2.
Facts and opinions......

 

[Miguelón]

In my mind, the 85hz in the kali is just perfect for the genelec 8030. Going lower costs quality and SPL.
I have my genelecs straight on a 3/8 inch mic pole with the thread in the base. Removed the rubber base base plate
I find that much better looking.

My ears cannot hear difference of the polarity switch on the kali, yet REW detects a very narrow and deep trough at 85hz in one position.
This seems compatible with the harman research, such a narrow gap is not audible. Switched it back, no audible difference.

I don’t see any problem with 80 Hz, or at least by ear sounds good enough for me.

The reason of having 85 Hz as crossover frequency in Genelec subs can be more related with their subs than with the monitors.

The crossover frequency, ideally, should be determined by room response apart from engineering.

I have 2 main room modes at 40 and 70 Hz, and a 3rd at 140 Hz.

The 2 lower are handled by the sub, the Q factor is quite high so I don’t see any reason for preferring 85 Hz from 85 or 90 Hz.

In fact I tried 90, 95 and 100 Hz and I hear no improvement from 80…

 

[pehu63]

I don’t see any problem with 80 Hz, or at least by ear sounds good enough for me.

The reason of having 85 Hz as crossover frequency in Genelec subs can be more related with their subs than with the monitors.

85hz seems common everywhere, jbl, genelec, kali, adam. Translates into wavelength of 4 meter. SVS dropped high-pass filters.

The crossover frequency, ideally, should be determined by room response apart from engineering.

Curious, why would that be?

I have 2 main room modes at 40 and 70 Hz, and a 3rd at 140 Hz.

I have a few more. As the videos of genelec explain, you cannot compensate a trough, other then improving the room.
On the advice of inactive member tangband, I compensated less than half of the measured peaks.
This is where the compromise kicks in, low/high volume, footswitch on or not.

As Floyd Toole explains somewhere else, you hear with your eyes as well.
Ear/brain already compensate for the room where you are in.
Emulating concert hall acoustics in your living room is a fantasy.

The 2 lower are handled by the sub, the Q factor is quite high so I don’t see any reason for preferring 85 Hz from 85 or 90 Hz.

In fact I tried 90, 95 and 100 Hz and I hear no improvement from 80…

In my setup, the DSP is before the high/low pass filter, so independent. Sub has no DSP whatsoever.
Reminds me, should do those measurements again, with/without footswitch. PCM5102 already added.

 

[Miguelón]

85hz seems common everywhere, jbl, genelec, kali, adam. Translates into wavelength of 4 meter. SVS dropped high-pass filters.

Curious, why would that be?

I have a few more. As the videos of genelec explain, you cannot compensate a trough, other then improving the room.
On the advice of inactive member tangband, I compensated less than half of the measured peaks.
This is where the compromise kicks in, low/high volume, footswitch on or not.

As Floyd Toole explains somewhere else, you hear with your eyes as well.
Ear/brain already compensate for the room where you are in.
Emulating concert hall acoustics in your living room is a fantasy.

In my setup, the DSP is before the high/low pass filter, so independent. Sub has no DSP whatsoever.
Reminds me, should do those measurements again, with/without footswitch. PCM5102 already added.

Kali WS 6.2 has an inbuilt crossover fixed at 80 Hz, so I guess this is what they consider optimal to ensure enough SPL with their disposable power.

I think there’s no optimal, the room considerations is because you can install your subwoofer in optimal points to have a better response in your listening position.

For example, I have a big null between 90 and 110 Hz, if I move the sub for other positions I could have this null out of the sweet spot.

With respect to the crossover frequency, not having a lot of experience in subs, there are some considerations.

- The higher the crossover frequency, the less directional will be the lows in the upper bound of the sub. We have more directional discrimination at 120 Hz than at 70 Hz. I’m talking about just 2.1 systems, if you have 2 subs, no issue.

-The lower the crossover frequency, the more power the monitors require. And one can also expect more distortion, but this should be considered monitor by monitor.

You can play with this variables and your personal preferences. I like how the G Threes sound around 80-90 Hz, things changes a lot around 50 where the port begins to sound a lot.

Many users have big 8 inches monitors and they prefer 50 Hz crossover frequencies, no problem with this if the monitors can handle 50 - 60 Hz with authority.

 

[pehu63]

Kali WS 6.2 has an inbuilt crossover fixed at 80 Hz, so I guess this is what they consider optimal to ensure enough SPL with their disposable power.

Yup, you are right. Assumptions .... My measuremnets showed the trough at 86hz. Docs clearly state 80hz.

I think there’s no optimal, the room considerations is because you can install your subwoofer in optimal points to have a better response in your listening position.

Agreed. Bass will always be a compromise in a living room. REW has a placement simulation module. SBIR is another one IIRC.
Genelec mentions a commercial tool in their webcast. Yes, two subs is better, if you have space and $$$, with Dirac or GLM $$$$ ......

I measure at the listening spots, and call it the day.
It is funny how the measurements vary greatly, while my ears do not notice big differences walking across the room.
BTW, the genelec video also has relevant placement advice, avoiding unnecessary symmetries, that can cause peaks/troughs.
Interesting that there is no way to compensate troughs, amplifying also amplifies the reflections causing the trough. Same null.
To fix that, improve/treat the room.

For example, I have a big null between 90 and 110 Hz, if I move the sub for other positions I could have this null out of the sweet spot.

Narrow nulls may not audible.

With respect to the crossover frequency, not having a lot of experience in subs, there are some considerations.

- The higher the crossover frequency, the less directional will be the lows in the upper bound of the sub. We have more directional discrimination at 120 Hz than at 70 Hz. I’m talking about just 2.1 systems, if you have 2 subs, no issue.

-The lower the crossover frequency, the more power the monitors require. And one can also expect more distortion, but this should be considered monitor by monitor.

You can play with this variables and your personal preferences. I like how the G Threes sound around 80-90 Hz, things changes a lot around 50 where the port begins to sound a lot.

Many users have big 8 inches monitors and they prefer 50 Hz crossover frequencies, no problem with this if the monitors can handle 50 - 60 Hz with authority.

Why buy satellites with 8 inch, when planning for subs ;-)
In many cases, good spinorama needs three-way with an 8 inch.
Big speakers, big subs, not my cup of tea.

I am amazed how good bass these small genelec speakers have.
Yet, no chance against the kali, 600 euro well spent (for me).

 

[delta76]

What I am getting at the following. Take your genelec 8361/8351, insanely good speakers.
Now check the specs, the genelec docs state lower than 0.05% harmonic distortion. SINAD barely at 70db.
In this forum, this ends up in a huge "NOT RECOMMENDED". Yet, insanely good speakers.

When optimizing for the entire chain, 0.01% or even 0.1% harmonic distortion is not relevant, compared to speaker distortion.
Why spend 100's or 1000's of dollars on DAC and/or amp, while the bottleneck is the speaker and room acoustics?
A good enough dac chip costs a few dollars, and real good class D amplifier is less than 10 dollar, e.g. TPA3255.

Broadly not understood, active speakers avoid high production tolerances, typical for passive crossovers.
And mind you, proper cross-over is critical for good spinorama.
Separate amplifiers also avoids intermodulation distortion across amps.

From the genelec teardown, I guess that the amp chips are IRS2092S, with separate power MOSFETS.
For the 8030 and 8330, distortion is even worse, yet not relevant compared to speaker distortion. TPA3118.

And that is my point, optimize end-to-end. Money spent on expensive DAC or amp cannot be spent on speakers.
So, insanely good amp or dac, it is just counterproductive. Put your dollars elsewhere for good sound.

What, sinad depends a lot on the components. In fact Amir never showed sinad for speakers, because it is irrelevant

 

[Miguelón]

Why buy satellites with 8 inch, when planning for subs ;-)
In many cases, good spinorama needs three-way with an 8 inch.
Big speakers, big subs, not my cup of tea.

Because an 8 inch monitor has limited low end performances, for example the JBL 308P covers to 45 Hz, and this part of the spectrum uses a lot of power from the amp.

With a sub cutting at 60 Hz, you can obtain a better performances of the woofer in the speakers. They will sound cleaner, most of distortion come from the last 10 Hz of the lows.

And, of course, they are fundamentals between 30 and 45 Hz, the lower note of a bass guitar is at 41 Hz, on the piano is at 27,5 Hz

Narrow nulls may not audible.

Well, in fact my null is not as narrow. I missed the gap frequencies.

This is the second reason to have a sub, even for big monitors. And even if the sub is not so Big...

The null is in white and pointed with the green arrow.

With a sub, I can set the crossover at 100 Hz, place It at a better spot and perhaps attenuate its amplitude. Probably I would need 2 subs for that.

I'm not doing It because limited options to place my sub.