Sealed smaller subs better for music?

[stemfencer]

Is there any science or consensus to this statement to support it?

Larger diameter ported subs seems to be marketed towards home theatre crowd (understandably so) but are hifi music people loosing out on anything assuming with them?

 

[Frgirard]

Is there any science or consensus to this statement to support it?

Larger diameter ported subs seems to be marketed towards home theatre crowd (understandably so) but are hifi music people loosing out on anything assuming with them?

Myth and legends.
The setup is essential.
How is design and build.
How is located and aligned in the room.

 

[abdo123]

Myth and legends.
The setup is essential.
How is design and build.
How is located and aligned in the room.

No it’s not.

Sealed subs have lower group delay and better phase behavior both of which could be audible.

 

[Frgirard]

No it’s not.

Sealed subs have lower group delay and better phase behavior both of which could be audible.

Neumann tell to lower the group delay, you extend the frequency in the infra bass. This why the neumann sub reach 18Hz.
For the phase the audibilty is non proved.

 

[Everett T]

Is there any science or consensus to this statement to support it?

Larger diameter ported subs seems to be marketed towards home theatre understandably so) but are hifi music people loosing out on anything assuming with them?

Room and goal dependent. If you want to fill a large space, ported is easier to do so and generally less expensive (DIY and retail). I'm currently running all sealed subs, but they aren't small by any means lol.

Here is the phase and group delay of the Dayton Audio 15" RSS390HE in a 4.7 cu.ft box with a slot port

 

[theyellowspecial]

No it’s not.

Sealed subs have lower group delay and better phase behavior both of which could be audible.

Doesn't group delay from room interaction swamp any group delay from subs?

 

[Frgirard]

The audibility of group delay and phase have been discussed on this forum. Results: opinions without facts.

 

[abdo123]

Doesn't group delay from room interaction swamp any group delay from subs?

Group delay is how long a certain frequency takes to reach your ears compared to all the other frequencies.

It's not really impacted meaningfully by room interaction. however it is impacted by number of drivers (things that are releasing sound) and crossovers.

With a port you're hearing the air vibrations propagating from inside the enclosure, not the room air that is being displaced by a diaphragm (driver).

combined with the fact that the port needs to resonate / build energy before it releases it makes it so that ports significantly increase group delay.

 

[fieldcar]

Group delay is how long a certain frequency takes to reach your ears compared to all the other frequencies.

It's not really impacted meaningfully by room interaction. however it is impacted by number of drivers (things that are releasing sound) and crossovers.

With a port you're hearing the air vibrations propagating from inside the enclosure, not the room air that is being displaced by a diaphragm (driver).

combined with the fact that the port needs to resonate / build energy before it releases it makes it so that ports significantly increase group delay.

I think a competently and powerfully designed ported sub can match a sealed for group delay, but I know what you mean. Poor group delay is very common among many ported subs, but it's less of a rule and more of a trend.

 

[DVDdoug]

Speaker design involves lots of compromises. There is more than one way to build a good speaker (and even more ways to build a bad speaker).

To generalize... A sealed speaker usually starts to roll-off at a higher frequency but it has a more gradual roll-off so you can get more out of it at very-low frequencies. A ported speaker has a sharper roll-off but the roll-off can begin at a lower frequency. So for example, the ported speaker might be "flat" down to 30Hz whereas the sealed box starts rolling-off at 50Hz. But the curves "cross" and at 20Hz the sealed box might have more output.

Also you can "tune" the ported speaker with a little (or big) bump before the roll-off to lower/extend the -3dB point. i.e. A +1 or +2dB bump before roll-off doesn't really hurt, and it can make the speaker go-lower. You have a lot more control (and more choices) with a ported speaker.

If you want to go subsonic, a bunch of big sealed subs with a ton of amplifier power is probably the way to go! (Or get one of those fan subwoofers.)

You can use WinISD or other speaker design software to experiment and predict frequency response of various designs. (You'll need the Thiele-Small parameters for the driver or there are some supplied with the software if you want to play-around with an "imaginary" driver.)


...Most "pro" subwoofers used in clubs and for live events are ported and tuned for around 40Hz (that's about the lowest note on a standard bass guitar). That gives the highest efficiency and most output "where it counts" to fill a big space with bass you can feel in your body. Home subwoofers can often go lower since the space is smaller and you don't need as much energy, and you often don't want or need as much volume.

..better for music?

You can probably get-away with a "bad-boomy" subwoofer if you're using it for movie or game effects. And, a lot of "kids" seem to like that boomy one-note bass in their cars as long as the bass is loud. But in general, any speaker (including the sub) is supposed to be accurate and it shouldn't matter what you are using it for, or what kind of music you are listening to.

 

[gorb]

Article on bass myths

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Here is the GD at listening position for a system in a typical non-treated living room, a system with very small subwoofer units:

Same system, different listening position:

Can you tell if the subwoofers are sealed or something different? What we see here, is that the room dominates what happen in the time domain at low frequencies.

One thing we can see, though. The crossover is 120hz, and both graphs show reasonable flat GD around the crossover. So proper calibration and integration is more important than the inherent GD of the subwoofer itself.

In this system, there is usable, decent output down to around 30hz. This is impossible to achieve in a very small sealed box. So, in this case, a similar sized sealed would not be better for music. Because what happens when output capacity is exceeded has much more impact on sound quality, than differences in GD.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@DVDdoug you can tune a sealed sub as well these days, as it typically has built-in dsp.

With regards to usable output, our pretty small sealed dual 10" has 103dB@2m at 30hz and 110dB@2m at 40hz.

A large ported sub will obviously be louder, so it's a matter of compromise and what is important to you.

 

[fineMen]

A typical question, as it seems to be spawned by mad advertising claims. No, no, no! Forget about the marketing, These guys are liars by profession. They are. Really!

Q: what is the maximum output for a certain level of distortion, at which frequency range?

Any other, namely the technical means for getting there, are of no interest to the customer. No interest at all! You get the output, how to get there, that is their problem!

 

[sigbergaudio]

A typical question, as it seems to be spawned by mad advertising claims. No, no, no! Forget about the marketing, They are liars by profession! They are! Really!

Q: what is the maximum output for a certain level of distortion, at which frequency range?

Any other, namely the technical means for getting there, are of no interest to the customer. No interest! You get the output, how to get there, that is their problem!

So this is all you need to know to select a subwoofer? Interesting how when it's a subwoofer everything is suddenly just about output. A subwoofer is still a loudspeaker. They do sound different.

 

[Everett T]

So this is all you need to know to select a subwoofer? Interesting how when it's a subwoofer everything is suddenly just about output. A subwoofer is still a loudspeaker. They do sound different.

The CEA 2010 spec has a lot to do with the spl issue. Many see the max burst as the most meaningful spec, oddly

 

[fineMen]

They do sound different.

Ja, sure! We are in audiophile territory. You twist the argument, well done!

This was about the value of port supported subs versus plain, closed subs. You claim to know better than science. The sound, taken subjectively, is it! Judged by You, at a distance of a thousend miles ... thunder!

 

[Kvalsvoll]

And if a larger system is an option, this is how the GD can look like:

GD at very low freq is improved because the low roll-off is now moved well below 20hz. It is the roll-off that causes GD to increase at low frequencies, an moving this roll-off down greatly improves GD in the frequency range above, the range that is important for music. Now this system is in a different room with much better low frequency acoustic properties, so the GD is also better across the whole bass range.

This larger system with much higher capacity and much wider frequency bandwith provides bass with better sound quality compared to the small system. There is a solidity and effortless powerful Slam! that simply is not there on the small system. But it comes at a cost - both in terms of economics and physical size.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Ja, sure! We are in audiophile territory. You twist the argument, well done!

This was about the value of port supported subs versus plain, closed subs. You claim to know better than science. The sound, taken subjectively, is it! Judged by You, at a distance of a thousend miles ... thunder!

Congratulations on your well executed strawman argument.

 

[Chrispy]

Good grief this myth just has to go away.