Scientific reasons why cables matter for audio

[fpitas]

I can only describe the OCC variation as sounding expensive.

Lol! I wonder if some he "tests" sound like cheap crap.

 

[Audiofire]

Half-truths make belief look like knowledge having a bit of truth to keep the gullible hooked
"Talking about cable sound is about the silliest and least significant aspects concerning hifi system improvement. That’s my take on it. Still, that tiny bit of seasoning can enhance the listening experience if one is open to it."

Iconoclast Cable by Belden —Additional Thoughts

Dave McNair can't help but add his thoughts to Ken Redmond's review or "who get's what?"

trackingangle.com

 

[fpitas]

Half-truths make belief look like knowledge having a bit of truth to keep the gullible hooked
"Talking about cable sound is about the silliest and least significant aspects concerning hifi system improvement. That’s my take on it. Still, that tiny bit of seasoning can enhance the listening experience if one is open to it."

Iconoclast Cable by Belden —Additional Thoughts

Dave McNair can't help but add his thoughts to Ken Redmond's review or "who get's what?"

trackingangle.com

Yes, they understand their audience all too well.

 

[DonH56]

I’ve had in the past recommend blue Jean cables , but with this they jumped the shark , to much money , anyone is corruptible

They still make good cables, just ignore the Iconoclast line and related drivel. We'll probably never know how and why he managed to integrate with Blue Jeans Cable.

 

[jkasch]

They still make good cables, just ignore the Iconoclast line and related drivel. We'll probably never know how and why he managed to integrate with Blue Jeans Cable.

Probably something like, “There are rich idiots throwing thousands of dollars at patch cord purchases. Why not have them throw it at us?”

 

[EDbit]

As far as I can see theres no tests like ABX,Null,SINAD etc....nothing.I couldnt put my name and face to this snakeoil propaganda.

 

[kemmler3D]

You know, if AI takes my job or whatever, it's nice to know I can always throw ethics aside, and pursue a fallback career as someone who abuses my layman's grasp of electrical engineering, and writes flowery prose about anything except controlled listening and placebo.

 

[Audiofire]

It's the English translation of the French "vdxfwqra" . Or it's just random letters, identical to my random letters on YouTube. I never really found out.

Austrian agony noises

 

[amirm]

Complete disappointment. First thought: over an hour video about cables so I had hopes that at least some of their measurements would be explained in detail and put in context to explain the sonic impact.

I have done all of that. I just post this in there:

"@AudioScienceReview
It can't [pass a null test]. I performed the very test in addition to my measurements in my "review of iconoclast XLR" (google those words and you see it). Not only do I show the mathematical null which is just noise at extremely low level, I have posted the captured audio files. To this day, no one has been able to pass a proper blind test of them.This is a classic issue of solving the wrong problem. And people not knowing enough about the topic to ask the right technical questions.

All of this said, I was very pleased that the company loaned me the cables instead of having me purchase them as I initially did. So I consider them "good people" but not with a proper solution to an audio problem."

And here is the actual review with null test, and even captured files for people to listen blindly: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/belden-iconoclast-xlr-cable-review.33929/

I didn't want to put the link in youtube in case they use it as an excuse to delete the comment.

Really, if you are going to interview someone technical, you better know as much if not more than that person about such a topic. Fail that and we get an infomercial.

 

[EDbit]

I have done all of that. I just post this in there:

"@AudioScienceReview
It can't [pass a null test]. I performed the very test in addition to my measurements in my "review of iconoclast XLR" (google those words and you see it). Not only do I show the mathematical null which is just noise at extremely low level, I have posted the captured audio files. To this day, no one has been able to pass a proper blind test of them.This is a classic issue of solving the wrong problem. And people not knowing enough about the topic to ask the right technical questions.

All of this said, I was very pleased that the company loaned me the cables instead of having me purchase them as I initially did. So I consider them "good people" but not with a proper solution to an audio problem."

And here is the actual review with null test, and even captured files for people to listen blindly: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/belden-iconoclast-xlr-cable-review.33929/

I didn't want to put the link in youtube in case they use it as an excuse to delete the comment.

Really, if you are going to interview someone technical, you better know as much if not more than that person about such a topic. Fail that and we get an infomercial.

Thankyou so much,well said Amir!

 

[maxmax]

I have done all of that. I just post this in there: …

They say at some point in the video that people choose the wrong measurements and therefore are misled in their judgement of these cables. That’s why I thought it would be cool to finally know more about their approach in measuring the cables.

Really, if you are going to interview someone technical, you better know as much if not more than that person about such a topic. Fail that and we get an infomercial.

So true.

 

[Audiofire]

They say at some point in the video that people choose the wrong measurements and therefore are misled in their judgement of these cables.

Biased psychological projection

 

[pablolie]

... . Fail that and we get an infomercial.

I think of pretty much every exec interview as an infomercial. So are the vast majority of presentations (especially keynotes) at big tech events. And most articles in the tech press.

 

[pablolie]

They say at some point in the video that people choose the wrong measurements and therefore are misled in their judgement of these cables....

If they do so without clearly presenting the measurements that matter (in their opinion), they are clueless charlatans.

 

[voodooless]

You know, if AI takes my job or whatever, it's nice to know I can always throw ethics aside, and pursue a fallback career as someone who abuses my layman's grasp of electrical engineering, and writes flowery prose about anything except controlled listening and placebo.

Eh, no! AI can do this just fine without you as well, sorry…

 

[arqwfxdv]

They say at some point in the video that people choose the wrong measurements and therefore are misled in their judgement of these cables. That’s why I thought it would be cool to finally know more about their approach in measuring the cables.

So true.

Actually, they say that all the time. To me, for instance

The last round on this was

@PassionforSound
@arqwfxdv you keep saying things like "all available measurements" despite being repeatedly told that the measurements you are referring to (on ASR) are incomplete. In my interview with Galen, he specifies exactly which measurements need to be done. Ask Amir to begin doing those measurements and then let's discuss.

To which I replied:

@arqwfxdv
@PassionforSound To begin with, plain and simple: The measurements that Amir does are relevant: level/volume, phase, pitch, frequency/frequency response, distortion (fundamentals and harmonics) (single tone (1kHz), multitone), S/N ratio, step response, SINAD. These are the variables needed to describe an audio signal. If there are any missing, then tell me *what* is missing.

But don’t tell me that who knows has “repeatedly told” me whatever. I know that Iconoclast are telling you all this, because this is the USP they are latching on to their products. They are more than happy to have found a successful influencer YT-channel to use as a multiplier. So, they do everything they can to have you buy all that hook, line, and sinker.

What they are propagating is irrelevant. It is irrelevant because their whole song and dance around characteristic impedance and the cable property rest of it is important for RF, not LF. It becomes relevant when the cable length is of a significant portion of the signal wavelength (1/10 and up). Then, signal reflection and distortion may occur. An RF signal of, say, 20MHz has a wavelength of about 10m in an RG58-cable (reasonably similar to an audio cable), so you could expect some influence on the signal at the usual length of audio cables (1m to 5m).

An LF signal relevant for audio, say, 1kHz has a wavelength of about 200km (sic!) in such a cable. The cable would need to be at least 20km long before you could measure anything. So, as long as you don’t own a small kingdom and wrap that cable all around it, it is inconsequential, i.e. irrelevant.

Amir measures the transfer function of, in this case, audio cables. You know, OFC, coax, 1-5m long (or similar). He is not concerned with any of the properties of that cable; what he is concerned with, is what goes in and what comes out. This “what comes out” is the only thing of relevance in audio. You link a DAC and an amp with a cable. The only thing of interest is the quality of the signal that goes into the amp as compared to what's coming out of the DAC. The thing in between, the cable can be anything: a banana, a shoestring, spaghetti, or an audio cable. Just what it is doesn’t matter, because you don’t need to measure that when you are interested in the transfer function. It is irrelevant.

This is called a “black box” approach, and it is used, I don’t know, everywhere and all the time. As a principle of measurement in science, it is infallible: If a cable property changes the sound, it must show up as a difference between the input signal (Signal IN) and the output signal (Signal OUT). Modern audio analyzers like the Audio Precision APx555 measure down to below -140 dB—that is millions of times more sensitive than the human ear. If no difference is measurable there, no acoustic difference can exists.

These industry- and laboratory standard machines measure the variables I listed above. If these variables weren’t relevant, then they would not be what these machines are measuring. It would also mean that the whole industry and science making and using these machines are incompetent, and only Iconoclast and a number of other fancy cable manufacturers, vendors and connoisseurs have it right. This is patently absurd and in itself a conspiracy theory.

Have that run though your head. And then let's discuss.

To which Lachlan responded:

@PassionforSound
I've read this and I understand what you're saying. The challenge where these conversations keep sticking (whether it's DACs, amps, cables or anything else) is that when the designers behind the products say "that's not going to show what's needed to prove what's happening" nothing changes. I have no skin in the game for Iconoclast. I'm just impressed with what I've heard and the fact that their sonic performance aligns with the care and attention that's gone into their design. This is true with other ASR-contentious products like the Chord gear where the designer explains the exact issues with the measurements, but nothing changes. Amps are the same so this is not a brand-related issue.

And that should be fine with me.


LINK

 

[Ruediger]

I would really like to hear about the proper measurements needed to review these cables.

Do they actually provide them somewhere?

 

[arqwfxdv]

Galen Gareis is apparently active in the video "Can You Actually Measure Cable Quality? A Technical Investigation"

@Rower30-ye6qn
rower30 by the way is Galen Gareis (me!). Not to use a pseudonym. This is 100% unedited so enjoy.
[...]

In this post, he talks about the importance of TIME and uses a lenghty quote from Milind N. Kunchur (yes, that one) as evidence.

To which I replied

If you could just ... please, please and please with a cherry on top ... provide a set of measurements, an APx Dashboard would make me the happiest person on the planet, I will be your slave forever.

LINK

 

[arqwfxdv]

I would really like to hear about the proper measurements needed to review these cables.

Do they actually provide them somewhere?

No.

They go on and on and on about that Amir uses the wrong/incomplete set of measurements and keep referring to Iconoclast's "White Papers" on their website, stressing that these include all the measuremenze needed.

I have posted my last encounter of this sort here. The post is "awaiting moderator approval", though.

 

[Audiofire]

To which I replied

Waste of time. Snake oil salesmen deserve to be exposed, then ignored. Hard to believe he can be so clueless about the simple importance of LCR specifications for audio cables, but there is a small probability.