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Science: Are You Consistant in Your Views?

agtp

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#1
Science: Are You Consistant in Your Views?

Is it important to maintain some level of consistency for credibility sake? Oftentimes, I see hypocrisy and contradictory views (not necessarily singling out this site, or any of it’s members), which ultimately undermines credibility of those who advocate an objective, scientific approach. Apparently, some don’t like being called out for their hypocritical views, which is understandable. Is there anything wrong with calling others out (in a gentle, respectful manner, preferably) in this regard?

Again, I’m not calling anyone out, just curious as to your opinions? Hoping this thread will lead to some interesting conversation.
 

amirm

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#2
Is there anything wrong with calling others out (in a gentle, respectful manner, preferably) in this regard?
There is if your understanding of the technical matter is superficial. I deal with this all the time when people critique my measurements: "oh, this guy on another forum says your measurements are wrong. I don't know anything about measurements but I think no one should pay attention to yours."

There is no shortcut here. If you are going to critique someone's technical point of view, you better darn well study the topic and be as much of an expert as the person you are going after.
 

agtp

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#3
I deal with this all the time when people critique my measurements: "oh, this guy on another forum says your measurements are wrong. I don't know anything about measurements but I think no one should pay attention to yours."

Pfft, that never happens… Oh, wait....


Screen Shot 2019-01-01 at 11.11.23 PM.png


There is no shortcut here. If you are going to critique someone's technical point of view, you better darn well study the topic and be as much of an expert as the person you are going after.

Not necessarily. One can lack the technical knowledge, yet still point out flaws in the methodology or logic. But I get what you’re saying.
 
Last edited:

Thomas savage

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#4
Getting after individuals members is not what we are here for, if you have a technical argument that you feel is valid then that’s what we want.

By all means challenge and question but we are here to learn and have fun not to get bogged down in personal ‘information free’ attacks .

As amir says if you want to go after anyone you better make sure you know your onions, we are not a forum for argument for the sake of it. The idea is to create correct information with the discussions serving to explain and deepen understanding and for that rigorous debate is very useful.

As long as it’s constructive (see above) I like to see contrary veiws points , it’s not a circle jerk.
 

amirm

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#5
Not necessarily. One can lack the technical knowledge, yet still point out flaws in the methodology or logic. But I get what you’re saying.
Then I need to tell you a story I have told before. My doctor prescribed a new medication to me. After taking it, I started to suffer from some side effects. On the next visit I asked him about it and he said it wouldn't do that. I go home and google and right away land on a page describing the side effects I had. And get this: the page was from the drug company itself!!!

So on the next visit I tell my doctor that I had seen what I was experiencing as one of the side effects of the medicine. He asked where I had heard that. I sheepishly say I read it on the Internet but it was the drug company's own report. He said all is not what it seems. That when they run the drug trials, they document everything patients report even though they may not have anything to do with the drug.

In contrast he said doctors after prescribing these medications hundreds of times, they get much better data on what is or is not a side effect of the medication. And that according to his experience, the side effect I was describing was not related to the medication.

Well, turned out he was right. And what I was experiencing had nothing whatsoever to do with that medication.

This was the last time I thought of challenging my doctor. :)

Seeing how 99% of what is posted about audio is junk science, I am going to caution you strongly to not use your lay logic and impressions to start any kind of arguments. Be ready to provide references to anything you claim otherwise, you are going to run foul of our mission statement and culture.
 

Thomas savage

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#6
Pfft, that never happens… Oh, wait....


View attachment 19767



Not necessarily. One can lack the technical knowledge, yet still point out flaws in the methodology or logic. But I get what you’re saying.
That guy’s not terribly rational or consistent , he congratulated me on a post I made in the ‘ subjectivist vs objectivists ‘ thread then on finding out I was the moderator here changed his mind on it and started to rip it apart. It’s was a great example of prejudice albeit delayed.

Just a heads up though , I don’t want to be going after other forums or individuals on other forums. Unless it for positive reasons ( again see ‘constructive ‘) I’d rather we not single out people or take screen grabs from elsewhere.

We are not here to fight, we are not here to argue for the sake of argument. We are here to robustly and comprehensively form knowledge and progress understanding for all audiophiles.

We can ‘ agree to disagree ‘ here , when two folks reach a impasse and no new understanding or consensus is possible then it’s up to readers to pick the path they feels correct. It’s not ‘ I must win at all costs’.
 

agtp

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#8
Amir, honestly, that was supposed to be irony and humor. I was agreeing with you. I thought it would be very obvious. I'm not doubting what you said, it does happen all the time and I just came across an example within minutes of you saying it. That's what made it humorous and so true.
 

Thomas savage

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#9
We do have plenty of threads and plenty of members who like to engage in ‘thought’ argument, logic battles etc . They debate ideas and that is of course fine even if not hugely informative.

Something I have learnt from being here , it’s ok if you don’t know and the likely hood your imagination will bridge that gap of knowledge is extremely , well unlikely. Trying will cause a mess , now that mess ( a bunch of folks going back and forth armed only with lay logic , half truths and gross misunderstanding) is what most audio forums are. That’s the sport for them but here at ASR we don’t like it. In fact it’s why these guys ( founder members ) ran away to form this place and it’s why they value our forum .


Mixing that with informing the less knowledgeable is tough but everyone here tries hard and that’s what makes this board diffrent from other ‘ objectivists ‘ ( hate using that term but don’t want to single out other places) forums . It also can make my job uniquely challenging as I have to manage those interactions to protect all sides. We all need to help each other , it’s a little more altruistic than other forums in that regard at least, fairly self serving in many other respect after all we are all human.

People that don’t help, don’t last here whether that be the doggedly ignorant or just ‘extreme ‘ grumpy (self defined) objectivists types . Both those end up feeling my boot up their arse after a period.
 

svart-hvitt

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#10
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?

That’s a modus operandi worth sticking to. Having said that, to challenge someone we may need to play a devil’s advocate (like @amirm in case of MQA). So provocation may be a tool to spur debate. But this is internet so people often take things literally or are offended, so proceed with a bit, but not a lot, of caution.
 

svart-hvitt

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#11
We do have plenty of threads and plenty of members who like to engage in ‘thought’ argument, logic battles etc . They debate ideas and that is of course fine even if not hugely informative.
«Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas.»

I never understood your prefererence for mediocrity.

;)
 

Thomas savage

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#12
«Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas.»

I never understood your prefererence for mediocrity.

;)
I never understood your need for nationalism ;)

Ideas, without testing them all you have is a discussion where no one can be wrong and yes I don’t find that hugely informative on a Audio forum. In fact it always feels a little self serving , like a intellectual circle jerk. Of course one can then decide to limit others and assume they are one constant thing in all areas of life but then that would be a fool.

I hesitate to put anyone in a box based on such a small snapshot, if I did then I’d assume you were a member of the Finland nation front and went on nationalist marches on your weekends. Maybe you do but I’m sure it’s just for the uniforms.

Edit,
Iv realised this might confuse you so, it’s all about context my darling.
 

svart-hvitt

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#13
I never understood your need for nationalism ;)

Ideas, without testing them all you have is a discussion where no one can be wrong and yes I don’t find that hugely informative on a Audio forum. In fact it always feels a little self serving , like a intellectual circle jerk. Of course one can then decide to limit others and assume they are one constant thing in all areas of life but then that would be a fool.

I hesitate to put anyone in a box based on such a small snapshot, if I did then I’d assume you were a member of the Finland nation front and went on nationalist marches on your weekends. Maybe you do but I’m sure it’s just for the uniforms.

Edit,
Iv realised this might confuse you so, it’s all about context my darling.
FWIW,

I’ve never been in Finland:eek:

I will tell you why ideas are important with an audio related example:

In modern audio, DACs and amplifiers are mature technology; their noise byproducts are small (inaudible!?) compared to what happens in speakers, and speaker-room integration. Yet, 95 percent of measurements on ASR are DAC measurements, and there has been no measurements of DAC, amp, speaker integration.

When you are focused on «things», you don’t see this, i.e. the bigger idea of audio.

And when you are focused on persons, say Bob Stuart of MQA, you lose the bigger idea of an emerging technology.

So I don’t think ASR would lose focus in presence of ideas too being scrutinized on this forum.

Having said that, @amirm ’s DAC measurements have been of great value to document that price and value are not always correlated, which supports the idea that DACs are mature technology, having become commodity.
 

mansr

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#14
Science: Are You Consistant in Your Views?

Is it important to maintain some level of consistency for credibility sake? Oftentimes, I see hypocrisy and contradictory views (not necessarily singling out this site, or any of it’s members), which ultimately undermines credibility of those who advocate an objective, scientific approach. Apparently, some don’t like being called out for their hypocritical views, which is understandable. Is there anything wrong with calling others out (in a gentle, respectful manner, preferably) in this regard?

Again, I’m not calling anyone out, just curious as to your opinions? Hoping this thread will lead to some interesting conversation.
I see you're continuing your crusade against Sal. It earned you a ban at CA. Are you trying for the same outcome here?
 

mansr

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#16
Iv no interest in this becoming adversarial and really I don't care what folks do elsewhere.

Clean slate here, this thread clearly explains what's required and let's leave it at that.
Here's a piece of a long rant he sent by PM to @Sal1950, me, and others right here on ASR:
To answer your question, Sal. As I told you, you’re an intriguing guy. I have never seen a more prime example of projection and compartmentalization in all my years. After a while, I began saving your contradictory statements for entertainment purposes. You’d make an interesting case study.
He's on some kind of mission to discredit Sal, and this thread is clearly part of that. I would have hoped such behaviour were unwelcome here.
 

Thomas savage

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#17
We are not publishing private messags on the forum. Iv read that before can't remember where. Edit it was from that message he copied me into and I delt with it.

As far as I'm aware he's apologised and the matter is settled. Least you want to publish more PM messages and then we will have a problem as I find that unaceptable.

Sal is a big boy if he has a problem he will deal with it he does not need you fighting his battles for him and I don't need you dragging up settled matters and creating a mess.

The matter is settled.
 

Thomas savage

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#19
Thanks for clarifying what kind of place this is.
The matter was addressed in conversation , it's not for you to start publishing those messages here after the fact to provoke a issue that does not concern you.

Simple as that and yes that’s the kind of place this is, in fact if you read through this thread you will get a very good idea concerning what we are about. It’s hard cheese if you don’t like it.
 

Sal1950

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#20
The matter was addressed in conversation , it's not for you to start publishing those messages here after the fact to provoke a issue that does not concern you.
Since that was a message sent to mansr, myself, and others here I can see nothing out of line with his decision to make it public? Just because a member sends words in a PM to another member is no reason to let him hide behind those words. I don't get your position on this Thomas?
 

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