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Schitt Sol Turntable

restorer-john

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I don't know. I do think arranging a magnetic system such that the bias force progresses as it should would be a challenge. I wouldn't try it myself.

IIRC the Thorens TP16 arm uses magnetic AS doesn't it? I've got a few on TD145 and TD160s. Personally, I've always liked that arm, not so much the floaty TTs however.

TP-16
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mk2 with removable wand
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anmpr1

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And while magnetic strength follows the inverse law, I'm not sure how well that maps to the change in skate force across a record.
Unlike tracking force, which (at least on a perfectly flat record) stays pretty much the same across all the grooves, skating compensation varies depending on a handful of factors. I've completely disabled it and not really heard a difference. So I don't know how important it is. I say use it if you've got it. Or not.

From the Pramanik article:

"Side thrust occurs due to the offset angle necessary for optimum angular tracking in radial arms. Friction between the stylus and the rotating record pulls the stylus in a direction tangential to the groove. Since the force is not in line with the arm bearing, a rotating force is generated forcing the arm towards the center of the record. This force depends on the instantaneous magnitude of the frictional force between the stylus and the groove walls.

"It should be remembered that side thrust is affected not only by relatively constant factors such as the [geometry of the] stylus and vertical tracking force, but also by the material from which the record is made and by such varying conditions as groove radius and modulation. Since side thrust varies more or less randomly over the surface of the record, it can never be compensated exactly."
 

AudioSceptic

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I follow Dr. Pramanik's syntax. It's a question of a non-intuitive terminology which, I admit, can be confusing at first blush.

In Dr. Pramank's usage, the horizontal bearing is responsible for arm's vertical (up and down) motion. You have to think in opposites for it to make sense. In the diagram, Dr. Pramanik describes the 'horizontal bearing'; not 'horizontal motion'. Instead, he uses the term 'warp and wow' movement, which is a vertical movement. As we know, vertical motion is 'up and down' arm movement which, again using his terminology, is controlled by the 'horizontal bearing'. He calls it that because the bearing is installed parallel or horizontal to the record surface (in a gimbal or knife edge).

Using his terminology, the 'vertical bearings' are responsible for lateral (side to side) horizontal arm motion-- the two bearings on the top and bottom of the arm in a gimbal, placed vertically one on top of the other.
Yes, it's confusing, but I was talking about vertical and horizontal motion, not vertical and horizontal bearings. You said
But if the pivot is appreciably higher than the record itself, there will be increased vertical arm motion (rising and falling) proportional to the distance of the pivot above the record.
but this is identical regardless of the height of the arm bearing. What the good Doctor describes, correctly in my view, is that increased bearing height causes the stylus to undergo a fore-and-aft horizontal movement over warps in addition to the vertical one, and this causes variations in the speed of groove tracing, aka warp wow. The result is the same as wow in the platter's speed.

But yes, "vertical" and "horizontal" bearings are confusing terms anyway. :)
 

restorer-john

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What the good Doctor describes, correctly in my view, is that increased bearing height causes the stylus to undergo a fore-and-aft horizontal movement over warps in addition to the vertical one, and this causes variations in the speed of groove tracing, aka warp wow.

Well that's pretty easy to test and prove. I can wind up the arm height on an SL-1200mk2 and measure wow (with my FL-140 W&F meter) on a test record, and compare to the correct (lower) arm height. As long as the test record has some tiny undulation, we can see how significant it really is.
 

anmpr1

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Yes, it's confusing, but I was talking about vertical and horizontal motion, not vertical and horizontal bearings. You said
but this is identical regardless of the height of the arm bearing. What the good Doctor describes, correctly in my view, is that increased bearing height causes the stylus to undergo a fore-and-aft horizontal movement over warps in addition to the vertical one, and this causes variations in the speed of groove tracing, aka warp wow. The result is the same as wow in the platter's speed.

But yes, "vertical" and "horizontal" bearings are confusing terms anyway. :)

If the height of the horizontal (up and down) bearing is higher than the warp, it will exacerbate the effects of the warp at the stylus tip. As long as we understand that, we understand what he was getting at.

However, in addition to that, you raise another point that I didn't recognize. I'm going to have to reread the article about the effects of warps on the 'horizontal motion' of the arm (in addition to the up and down vertical effects). If he is also talking about that, then what you say is certainly valid. Give me a little time and let me review. Thanks for pointing that out.

It would be better to call them bearing A and bearing B. Then it would be simpler to talk about. That's for sure.
 

restorer-john

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Ask @Frank Dernie the correct designation. I've seen them referred every way. Some called the vertical bearing for its physical placement, the axis of movement, etc. I can see arguments both ways when you consider the bearings themselves, not the movement or the plane of movement they allow.
 

watchnerd

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Unlike tracking force, which (at least on a perfectly flat record) stays pretty much the same across all the grooves, skating compensation varies depending on a handful of factors. I've completely disabled it and not really heard a difference. So I don't know how important it is. I say use it if you've got it. Or not.

From the Pramanik article:

"Side thrust occurs due to the offset angle necessary for optimum angular tracking in radial arms. Friction between the stylus and the rotating record pulls the stylus in a direction tangential to the groove. Since the force is not in line with the arm bearing, a rotating force is generated forcing the arm towards the center of the record. This force depends on the instantaneous magnitude of the frictional force between the stylus and the groove walls.

"It should be remembered that side thrust is affected not only by relatively constant factors such as the [geometry of the] stylus and vertical tracking force, but also by the material from which the record is made and by such varying conditions as groove radius and modulation. Since side thrust varies more or less randomly over the surface of the record, it can never be compensated exactly."

I think it's time skating force got it's own topic thread....there seems to be a huge lack of consensus on almost everything about it.
 

Thomas_A

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Do you apply silicone at the brush hinges? What instrument do you use to get the thick gunk in the small hinge?

Yes I've had a few of the JICOs, and a few of the mechanisms did not work properly. I removed the small caps, used a toothpick to apply a little oil, and put back the caps. Sometimes the caps should not be pushed all the way in since they may prevent the movement, There is a thread at VE about that.
 

AudioSceptic

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Well that's pretty easy to test and prove. I can wind up the arm height on an SL-1200mk2 and measure wow (with my FL-140 W&F meter) on a test record, and compare to the correct (lower) arm height. As long as the test record has some tiny undulation, we can see how significant it really is.
This would be great to see and it will save us doing the maths. All records have ripples and warps to some degree, but I'd expect large warps to make an easily measurable difference. What would a large warp be? 5 mm total travel?
 

anmpr1

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Yes, it's confusing, but I was talking about vertical and horizontal motion, not vertical and horizontal bearings. You said

But if the pivot is appreciably higher than the record itself, there will be increased vertical arm motion (rising and falling) proportional to the distance of the pivot above the record.

but this is identical regardless of the height of the arm bearing. What the good Doctor describes, correctly in my view, is that increased bearing height causes the stylus to undergo a fore-and-aft horizontal movement over warps in addition to the vertical one, and this causes variations in the speed of groove tracing, aka warp wow. The result is the same as wow in the platter's speed.

I see that what I wrote was not what I meant to write, because Pramanik was referencing warps and I did not include that, which I should have. For that omission, as they say in Chinese period costume dramas, "I deserve to die a thousand deaths." :rolleyes:

We can say that with a perfectly flat record there will be no vertical (up and down) movement of the pivot, regardless of its height in relation to the record. With warps, however, the higher the pivot is from the warp will have the effect of inreasing and decreasing VTF (vertical tracking force) as the stylus traverses the warp. Thus, placing the up and down pivot (what Pramanik calls the horizontal pivot) at the level of the warp will result in a more stable system, all other things being equal (more on that later).

Lateral (horizontal--side to side) movement of the arm is possible if the record is eccentric, causing "an outward motion of the tonearm for every half-rotation... On the other half-rotation the inward motion will be larger by the amount of eccentricity. Bearing friction will have the same effect, but the increase and decrease in contact pressure will alternate between groove walls."

The obvious question is audibility. None of these effects can be singularly discussed much in isolation from the rest of them, as we are looking at a 'system'. Also, a lot of the effects can be measured, but not readily heard. In one of Dr. Rich's excellent cartridge reviews he states that he was unable to 'hear' the effects of mistracking on the test record, but was able to 'see' effects in the form of distortion, on his 'scope.

In my experience, FWIW, the only two major determinants I've come across that I believe I can reliably hear as I make changes are a) lateral tracking error and b) vertical tracking force differences. I can't reliably claim that I've heard differences when changing anti-skating, or even cutting it out. I should mention that I'm talking systems where things are relatively stable. Obviously one will have poor results if cartridge compliance parameters do not match those of the tonearm, and major resonances happen.

In a way, the thing with records is that absolute fidelity is typically average to low, and there are so many variables (most not user adjustable) that it is easy to get bogged down on details that may or may not matter, given the final sonic product. Also, changing one setting likely affects another, so you have to consider 'trade offs'. All of that could be what makes it a 'fun' hobby--i.e., it is so interactive. But it is also likely why many just 'chunk it' and go with something easy and technically better--i.e., digits.
 

watchnerd

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This would be great to see and it will save us doing the maths. All records have ripples and warps to some degree, but I'd expect large warps to make an easily measurable difference. What would a large warp be? 5 mm total travel?

Do people keep records with 5mm warps in them??
 

AudioSceptic

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If the height of the horizontal (up and down) bearing is higher than the warp, it will exacerbate the effects of the warp at the stylus tip. As long as we understand that, we understand what he was getting at.
What effects are those? See below.
However, in addition to that, you raise another point that I didn't recognize. I'm going to have to reread the article about the effects of warps on the 'horizontal motion' of the arm (in addition to the up and down vertical effects). If he is also talking about that, then what you say is certainly valid. Give me a little time and let me review. Thanks for pointing that out.
This is not another point. In the very article you quoted, he does not talk about vertical effects (results). He talks about the horizontal effects (relative movement of stylus in groove causing speed variations) of vertical movement over warps. This is the whole point.
It would be better to call them bearing A and bearing B. Then it would be simpler to talk about. That's for sure.
Please forget about the bearing names. It is arm movement that matters.
 

anmpr1

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What effects are those? See below.

From the article:

"The height of the horizontal bearing above the record surface is important for reproduction quality. As the tonearm moves up and down under the influence of record warps, the stylus moves in an arc with the axis of the horizontal bearing as its center. If the bearing is well above the record surface, the stylus will move forward simultaneously with its upward movement, and the speed of the record groove relative to to the stylus will decrease. The effect is identical to a decrease in turntable speed, and it lowers the pitch of the reproduced signal. The reverse occurs as the stylus moves down the warp, and the speed returns to nominal value. This...is known as 'warp wow'."

From what you wrote I was presuming you meant the arm could move laterally (and not up and down) during a warp. That would be determinant on record eccentricity, and any bearing friction/skating.
 

AudioSceptic

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Do people keep records with 5mm warps in them??
That's what I'm wondering. What would a typical figure be? I remember returning some where the warp would even hit the cartridge body, but that depends a lot on the shape of the cartridge body and the clearance above the stylus. I never measured any but we would need a figure to do any maths.
 

anmpr1

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Do people keep records with 5mm warps in them??
As long as the arm can track it, I keep it. What is also problematic are concave/convex warps of the entire disc. A record weight or other clamp down holder can fix one side, but has no effect on the on the other. Vacuum hold down was available at certain price points to deal with this.

Record eccentricity is another problem. The only 'solution' to this I recall was the Nakamichi centering turntable.
 

AudioSceptic

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Ask @Frank Dernie the correct designation. I've seen them referred every way. Some called the vertical bearing for its physical placement, the axis of movement, etc. I can see arguments both ways when you consider the bearings themselves, not the movement or the plane of movement they allow.
One advantage of the unipivot: it's all one bearing! ;)
 

AudioSceptic

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From the article:

"The height of the horizontal bearing above the record surface is important for reproduction quality. As the tonearm moves up and down under the influence of record warps, the stylus moves in an arc with the axis of the horizontal bearing as its center. If the bearing is well above the record surface, the stylus will move forward simultaneously with its upward movement, and the speed of the record groove relative to to the stylus will decrease. The effect is identical to a decrease in turntable speed, and it lowers the pitch of the reproduced signal. The reverse occurs as the stylus moves down the warp, and the speed returns to nominal value. This...is known as 'warp wow'."

From what you wrote I was presuming you meant the arm could move laterally (and not up and down) during a warp. That would be determinant on record eccentricity, and any bearing friction/skating.
No. I thought I made it clear I was talking about fore-and-aft (in the axis of the cantilever), not lateral, movement. Eccentricity introduces another wow component, of course, but that's another matter.
 

AudioSceptic

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As long as the arm can track it, I keep it. What is also problematic are concave/convex warps of the entire disc. A record weight or other clamp down holder can fix one side, but has no effect on the on the other. Vacuum hold down was available at certain price points to deal with this.

Record eccentricity is another problem. The only 'solution' to this I recall was the Nakamichi centering turntable.
How does vacuum hold down work when the dish shape is inverted, i.e., the rim is higher than the centre?
 
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