Schiit Vidar 2 Stereo Amplifier Review

[Steven Holt]

since anything Class D with an Ncore or Purifi in it murders it

Only on paper, my friend. In my living room, not so much.

 

[pablolie]

Only on paper, my friend. In my living room, not so much.

I know we're talking about differences that are either beyond or at the edge of possible hear-ability with any halfway capable implementation of either design. What anyone prefers is their business, but any strong claim it's immediately hearable as much superior will make me raise an eyebrow. Same goes for speakers these days, IMO, those that measure well are all great and easy to live with, claiming dramatic differences when you listen to them also makes me suspect we already had a favorite in mind.

 

[terryforsythe]

From their site:
"some people have played games with what "Assembled in USA" means. When we say it, it means that our chassis guys are right over the hill in the San Fernando Valley, our transformers are made here in California, our boards come from the east coast (of the USA), and we design, assemble, and test everything here in Valencia, California."

More components "made in the USA" than I expected, and it appears that they have good control over their supply chain. To me, though, that kind of begs the question as to why they didn't use those components in a design that produces SINAD measurements at least on par with numerous other amplifiers within spitting distance of its price, and some that are cheaper.

 

[ta240]

Meaning? That's along time in electronics when you take into consideration the speed at which products are improving.

It is a little sad that our society has come to accept such short lifespans from items, especially ones that contain elements that are harmful and likely won't be disposed of properly. Often the 'improvements' aren't needed or even audible for most people.

People in the real world, where they aren't chasing performance stats or watching reviews touting how much better each new product is, tend to buy once and not think about it again until the item breaks. For most of the population, audio components aren't a hobby; they are an appliance. Hit the power button, music comes out and we are good.
My only family member that replaced an audio component in the last 30 years was one where it died. Nothing else has entered a landfill, nothing has been shipped around the globe or even driven up to their door in that time.

 

[levimax]

I am not sure where the seemingly established sentiment of "Class D is more short lived" comes from. I disagree with it - many things in far more critical apps have switched to electronic switches vs linear gain. I don't believe for a second longevity is a Class D weakness, but as always -and that definitely includes any other Class- it comes down to the quality of the design.

As @restorer-john pointed out it is the switching power supplies that most likely are not going to last. Not because it isn't possible to make an SMPS that lasts 50 years but they are complicated enough with enough engineering that they are engineered not to last that long. For a linear supply I am not even sure how you could make it not last decades without taking extreme measures. Transformers are about as simple as it gets and they can last indefinitely and bridge rectifiers are not far behind. The filter caps are probably going to be the weak link but depending on the rating and quality can last many decades and even if they start to degrade it is not usually "catastrophic"... you just start to get some more noise. I have been building my own computers since the 1980's, around a dozen or so, and the only failure I have ever had is the PS.... I usually go through 2 or 3 over the life of the computer (and I don't buy the no name cheap power supplies). SMPS are complicated devices that "take an electrical beating" and need a lot of engineering to work which also allows for MTF to be engineered in as well.

Now whether or not a linear supply and class AB make any sense in 2024, even if the SMPS does not last 25+ years is another issue. To me the biggest issue with high performance Class D is there really are only a few manufactures so there really is no choice to buy a class D with an SMPS engineered for a long life. You buy Purfi or Hypex in the box / brand of your choice and you take your chances.

 

[ta240]

More components "made in the USA" than I expected, and it appears that they have good control over their supply chain. To me, though, that kind of begs the question as to why they didn't use those components in a design that produces SINAD measurements at least on par with numerous other amplifiers within spitting distance of its price, and some that are cheaper.

Has anyone shown there is an audible difference between this and those other amplifiers? At some point they would be chasing customers that have largely already made up their mind what other brands they prefer. It is already commendable that, with a loyal customer base, they changed their design and testing methods to produce amps that have cleaner output. And, isn't it pretty much accepted that some listeners like a little bit of 2nd harmonics? Why ignore those customers?

I don't think there is much that Schiit can do to become a darling brand here. I would argue that if Topping had produced this amp as it sits, a lot of people would be saying "Well that's pretty clean for a reasonable priced A/B amp. That should make customers that want A/B happy"

 

[Mosfet]

I can't help but wonder how this amp would compare with the Schiit amp.

DCA 1222 (Discontinued)

Crystal-clear, breathtaking, seat-shaking cinema sound is here with the DCA 1222 Digital Cinema Amplifier by QSC

www.qsys.com

 

[MacClintock]

Exactly, and I wonder what the Vidar would do in a blind A/B test. I'm not sure that the differences would be obvious against an AHB2 that costs four times as much.

A better comparison would be the Soncoz SGP1, which was measured here last year. It is also class AB, has almost the same power. It measures better, but only in the already inaudible range, cost $1100 without the 5 years warranty, yet has nice VU-meters.

​

 

[pablolie]

As @restorer-john pointed out it is the switching power supplies that most likely are not going to last. Not because it isn't possible to make an SMPS that lasts 50 years but they are complicated enough with enough engineering that they are engineered not to last that long. For a linear supply I am not even sure how you could make it not last decades without taking extreme measures. Transformers are about as simple as it gets and they can last indefinitely and bridge rectifiers are not far behind. The filter caps are probably going to be the weak link but depending on the rating and quality can last many decades and even if they start to degrade it is not usually "catastrophic"... you just start to get some more noise. I have been building my own computers since the 1980's, around a dozen or so, and the only failure I have ever had is the PS.... I usually go through 2 or 3 over the life of the computer (and I don't buy the no name cheap power supplies). SMPS are complicated devices that "take an electrical beating" and need a lot of engineering to work which also allows for MTF to be engineered in as well.

Now whether or not a linear supply and class AB make any sense in 2024, even if the SMPS does not last 25+ years is another issue. To me the biggest issue with high performance Class D is there really are only a few manufactures so there really is no choice to buy a class D with an SMPS engineered for a long life. You buy Purfi or Hypex in the box / brand of your choice and you take your chances.

To me, though, that just means that switching power supplies can be made super cheaply. But they can also be made to better standards. It's the cheap, throw-away swithing power supplies that give them all a bad name. And the fact discussions out there -rightfully- say there's no better SQ to be gained... ignoring the simple fact there is indeed more reliability to be gained from spending a tad extra.

As an example, my Squeezebox Touch is attached to a $170 "linear" power supply (an irrational spend given the fact the Touch itself was only $299)... not because it makes the SQ a micro-amount better, but simply because it doesn't annoyingly crap out randomly emitting noise that interferes with remote controls after a very few years, unlike the $6.99 crap.

 

[AudioSceptic]

It was more a rhetorical question, but thanks for answering it anyway.

March audio seems to be a great company which also builts nice, supposedly very well measuring and not overly expensive speakers, would love to see them measured by Amir here.

Erin reviewed March speakers here <https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/march_audio_sointuva/. If you don't know, Erin's reviews are similar to Amir's.

Edit: I see that StaticV3 beat me to it!

 

[terryforsythe]

Has anyone shown there is an audible difference between this and those other amplifiers?

If there isn't, why is so much time and effort spent measuring SINAD? Why was the amp even sent to Amir to measure and review?

they changed their design and testing methods to produce amps that have cleaner output

How is the output cleaner? Is there a measurement that shows this? Looking at the FFT plot in Amir's review, it doesn't look very clean to me.

I would argue that if Topping had produced this amp as it sits, a lot of people would be saying "Well that's pretty clean for a reasonable priced A/B amp. That should make customers that want A/B happy"

Not most people here based on posts I have read. In that regard, the Topping LA90D is a class A/B amp that is the same price as the Vidar 2, but outperforms it by 32 dB in SINAD measurement, though it does have quite a bit less power.

 

[jruser]

So, can someone a little more science oriented take a stab at explaining why the Outlaw 2220 FFT looks better but it has a lower SINAD?

 

[MacClintock]

If there isn't, why is so much time and effort spent measuring SINAD? Why was the amp even sent to Amir to measure and review?

This is firstly just to know how it measures and the higher the SINAD, the better, in principle. But the Schiit clears the 16 bit hurdle in all measurements, so anything measuring better would not be audible.

How is the output cleaner? Is there a measurement that shows this? Looking at the FFT plot in Amir's review, it doesn't look very clean to me.

Again, clean enough, the highest distorion peak is at about -85 dB and the power supply one below -100 dB. Nothing of this can be heard.

But if you care about the difference between inaudible and guaranteed totally inaudible also for bats..

 

[ta240]

If there isn't, why is so much time and effort spent measuring SINAD? Why was the amp even sent to Amir to measure and review?

That logic can also be used to explain the need for six figure cables. People spend a lot of time and effort on those. If the cable actually has lower resistance and capacitance does that make all the people justified in buying and selling them? Or is it still chasing the absurd because nobody can tell the difference. People being obsessed with numbers that are inaudible is the same until they are shown to be audible through double blind testing.

As to why send amps, some have problems that are audible. The obsession with the inaudible doesn't make any sense to me, but I really can't see 'so much time and effort' as being an argument for it being legitimate. There are plenty of things people spend a lot of time and effort on that are silly. Is the earth flat because people spend time and effort on arguing it? Once I see that an amp doesn't have any audible issues I'm done with the results.

How is the output cleaner? Is there a measurement that shows this? Looking at the FFT plot in Amir's review, it doesn't look very clean to me.

Cleaner than their old amps and DACs.

Not most people here based on posts I have read. In that regard, the Topping LA90D is a class A/B amp that is the same price as the Vidar 2, but outperforms it by 32 dB in SINAD measurement, though it does have quite a bit less power.

Ironically, in trying to counter my comment that people would be much more positive about it if it were a Topping, you chose to compare it to a low powered Topping amp to show how they are better. Even though I haven't seen a single double blind test showing that anyone can hear the difference between it and the Vidar 2. Can the average person even detect second harmonics at the level they are on the Vidar 2? Would they find it a negative?

 

[DMill]

If there isn't, why is so much time and effort spent measuring SINAD? Why was the amp even sent to Amir to measure and review?

SINAD is important to a point it is no longer discernible and we can’t hear it. Then it is good housekeeping. I agree with Amir on this.

How is the output cleaner? Is there a measurement that shows this? Looking at the FFT plot in Amir's review, it doesn't look very clean to me.

Graphs can be misleading depending on how deep you want to dive. Again, can human ears hear it?

Not most people here based on posts I have read. In that regard, the Topping LA90D is a class A/B amp that is the same price as the Vidar 2, but outperforms it by 32 dB in SINAD measurement, though it does have quite a bit less power.

The Topping is interesting and underpowered for my uses. It certainly does many things right if I wanted a computer desktop amp for a small space, but it lacks in too many areas for me to consider it. I think it’s a good solution for some. Really hard for me to compare it to this product.

 

[levimax]

To me, though, that just means that switching power supplies can be made super cheaply. But they can also be made to better standards. It's the cheap, throw-away swithing power supplies that give them all a bad name. And the fact discussions out there -rightfully- say there's no better SQ to be gained... ignoring the simple fact there is indeed more reliability to be gained from spending a tad extra.

As an example, my Squeezebox Touch is attached to a $170 "linear" power supply (an irrational spend given the fact the Touch itself was only $299)... not because it makes the SQ a micro-amount better, but simply because it doesn't annoyingly crap out randomly emitting noise that interferes with remote controls after a very few years, unlike the $6.99 crap.

An interesting question is if a company had its engineering and quality control down to the point of being able to engineer any MTF it wanted in a tight range what would it do?

 

[NTK]

So, can someone a little more science oriented take a stab at explaining why the Outlaw 2220 FFT looks better but it has a lower SINAD?

SINAD considers both total harmonic distortions and noise. The SINAD of the Outlaw is noise dominated, whereas the Schiit is dominated by distortions. You can see that the noise floor (the height of the grass) is higher for the Outlaw than the Schiit (averaging ~ -120 dB vs -130 dB).

Note that you can't directly infer the total noise figure from the FFT plot. You'll need to factor in the "FFT process gain" which depends on the FFT size, sampling frequency, and the bandwidth to be considered for the noise.

 

[Steven Holt]

I know we're talking about differences that are either beyond or at the edge of possible hear-ability with any halfway capable implementation of either design. What anyone prefers is their business, but any strong claim it's immediately hearable as much superior will make me raise an eyebrow. Same goes for speakers these days, IMO, those that measure well are all great and easy to live with, claiming dramatic differences when you listen to them also makes me suspect we already had a favorite in mind.

Far too many people on this forum are getting way too hung up on SINAD. On any amp measured that exceeds the 'double zeros' vs the 'double zero' amp, yr not gonna hear a damn bit of difference (provided that yr not a bat or a dog.)

 

[Blumlein 88]

An interesting question is if a company had its engineering and quality control down to the point of being able to engineer any MTF it wanted in a tight range what would it do?

There are formulas for this in savvy businesses. I always remember the light bulb company from the early 20th century. One of its bulbs is still burning in a California fire station. Its bulbs were so well made it put them out of business basically.

Centennial Light - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A fate that threatened the lighting business so much it created the Phoebus cartel. An agreement by international companies to make bulbs with a standard 1000 hr lifetime. That lifetime has been the same for incandescent bulbs until recently when such bulbs are being replaced by LEDs.

Phoebus cartel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[somebodyelse]

Maybe that most of the high-performing class D modules have only been around for ~5 years?

ncore came out 12 years ago.