Schiit speaks

[BDWoody]

I have to say, this is the most tolerant of trolls forum that I've experienced.

There's method to the madness.

If you toss them early, they just claim we couldn't stand up to their...um..rigor.

After a while, once they are fully beclowned, they generally either disappear after realizing they are making themselves look silly, or they self-destruct in often spectacular fashion. As long as some of the self-appointed forum attack dogs don't get too rabid, it really shows us as more open and helpful than many expect.

 

[HiFidFan]

There's method to the madness.

If you toss them early, they just claim we couldn't stand up to their...um..rigor.

After a while, once they are fully beclowned, they generally either disappear after realizing they are making themselves look silly, or they self-destruct in often spectacular fashion. As long as some of the self-appointed forum attack dogs don't get too rabid, it really shows us as more open and helpful than many expect.

That's pretty good thinkin'

For a non-scientist

 

[amirm]

Well, here is you doing your pedagogy. What exactly make you say I'm falling for anything?!? The fact that I dare say that "measurements do matter", but your measurement don't capture the whole picture?!? Give me a break.

You don't seem to realize what you have walked into. You not only are stating that but also bringing Jason as your expert witness. Please don't do that. Take some time to learn what we do and how we use measurements. Then ask questions if something is true or not.

As for Jason's missive, read it as entertainment. It is not news. It is not serious matter that applies to audio science. It is something to pass the time. Don't bring it to us and demand that we show you what is wrong with because we absolutely can do that.

As to giving you a break, I am pretty sure if you went to your doctor and told him to put down his statoscope because it surely doesn't come out and say what is wrong with you, he would throw you out of his office. He will tell you as we have done, to not take the advice of someone online that is not a doctor as evidence that you are right and he is wrong. He combines measurements with his knowledge of science and over all experience to give you expert opinion of what could be wrong with you. Don't make fun of that when we do the same thing here lest you want us to trivialize your profession just as easily.

 

[RobS]

My question is: what does an electronics designer know about sound perception by humans?

If you are an audio engineer, isn't it crucial to have an understanding of how humans perceive sound? Especially if you are running a business making products for the end user's ears (or if you are a high $$$ hifi company, the glitziest, shiniest, eye appealing chassis for the buyer's eyes).

You could have the best audio electronics designs on paper, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans if nobody likes your product. Listening is crucial in the development process.

The problem with Schiit is they are a marketing company first to try to conceal poor designs. Most of their products don't measure up to give you an accurate reproduction of your music content.

 

[Helicopter]

If you are an audio engineer, isn't it crucial to have an understanding of how humans perceive sound? Especially if you are running a business making products for the end user's ears (or if you are a high $$$ hifi company, the glitziest, shiniest, eye appealing chassis for the buyer's eyes).

You could have the best audio electronics designs on paper, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans if nobody likes your product. Listening is crucial in the development process.

The problem with Schiit is they are a marketing company first to try to conceal poor designs. Most of their products don't measure up to give you an accurate reproduction of your music content.

You don't need to understand perception of sound unless the lack of understanding is an impediment to audible performance. If you understand electronic design and measurements well enough to make stuff that's audibly transparent, then you don't necessarily need to do better in design and you definitely don't need to do any better in understanding of perception. The success of Schiit proves some of this. Obviously their good designs go way above transparency, but the people who buy their other stuff are still likely to be happy with what they get and the experience they buy.

 

[Rottmannash]

If you are an audio engineer, isn't it crucial to have an understanding of how humans perceive sound? Especially if you are running a business making products for the end user's ears (or if you are a high $$$ hifi company, the glitziest, shiniest, eye appealing chassis for the buyer's eyes).

You could have the best audio electronics designs on paper, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans if nobody likes your product. Listening is crucial in the development process.

The problem with Schiit is they are a marketing company first to try to conceal poor designs. Most of their products don't measure up to give you an accurate reproduction of your music content.

Isn't it true some companies design amps without ever listening to them until the design is completed?

 

[Emlin]

Isn't it true some companies design amps without ever listening to them until the design is completed?

Why listen at all?

 

[Racheski]

This thread represents the forum in their complete inability to ignore trolls. The problem with a room full of very helpful people is that it's a room full of very helpful people, who will give time to those who obviously do not deserve any.

So so true. I thought my Troll-dar gif would help, but Amir took the bait anyways.

 

[RobS]

You don't need to understand perception of sound unless the lack of understanding is an impediment to audible performance. If you understand electronic design and measurements well enough to make stuff that's audibly transparent, then you don't necessarily need to do better in design and you definitely don't need to do any better in understanding of perception. The success of Schiit proves some of this. Obviously their good designs go way above transparency, but the people who buy their other stuff are still likely to be happy with what they get and the experience they buy.

You could have a product that has perfect measurements on the bench but then reveals problems during a listening test. You'd then have to go back to find the cause and understand what may have been missed in the initial measurements. Or take a different set of measurements. Or redesigning part of the circuit. Etc.

But understanding audibility and our perception of sound should factor in how audio electronics are being designed because ultimately it all comes back to the human ear of the listener. There's products here that have measured so well below the threshold of audibility as to not have that much importance in the grand scheme of things. Or there may be artifacts in sound reproduction that weren't captured by a standard suite of measurements.

 

[Rottmannash]

Why listen at all?

Not sure what you're asking.

 

[amirm]

If you are an audio engineer, isn't it crucial to have an understanding of how humans perceive sound?

Definitely not or we would not remotely have so many companies in audio business. The path is defined by engineering and measurements to prove the same. Heck, you can randomly follow a blueprint of an amp and sell it with no measurement or human perception skills.

 

[Vovgan]

I am pretty sure if you went to your doctor and told him to put down his statoscope because it surely doesn't come out and say what is wrong with you, he would throw you out of his office. He will tell you as we have done, to not take the advice of someone online that is not a doctor as evidence that you are right and he is wrong. He combines measurements with his knowledge of science and over all experience to give you expert opinion of what could be wrong with you. Don't make fun of that when we do the same thing here lest you want us to trivialize your profession just as easily

k I think that was a KO

 

[Skeptic]

There's method to the madness.

If you toss them early, they just claim we couldn't stand up to their...um..rigor.

After a while, once they are fully beclowned, they generally either disappear after realizing they are making themselves look silly, or they self-destruct in often spectacular fashion. As long as some of the self-appointed forum attack dogs don't get too rabid, it really shows us as more open and helpful than many expect.

"Rabid dogs" and "shows us as more open and helpful than many expect" don't quite go together, don't you think?

You don't seem to realize what you have walked into. You not only are stating that but also bringing Jason as your expert witness. Please don't do that. Take some time to learn what we do and how we use measurements. Then ask questions if something is true or not.

For sure I didn't realize the pathos, especially from you Amir. That was a bit perplexing for me. Had no idea about the animosity between you/ASR and Jason/Schiit/social media.

As far as I know, you've rated both Vidar and Aegir as recommended, so I thought that you "liked" them.

As for Jason's missive, read it as entertainment. It is not news. It is not serious matter that applies to audio science. It is something to pass the time. Don't bring it to us and demand that we show you what is wrong with because we absolutely can do that.

I'm not the original poster. I didn't bring in anything. I just agreed with his take, and as I mentioned above, I was under the impression that ASR liked his products.

As to giving you a break, I am pretty sure if you went to your doctor and told him to put down his statoscope because it surely doesn't come out and say what is wrong with you, he would throw you out of his office. He will tell you as we have done, to not take the advice of someone online that is not a doctor as evidence that you are right and he is wrong. He combines measurements with his knowledge of science and over all experience to give you expert opinion of what could be wrong with you.

I always ask for more information, not less. Not sure this is a good analogy. However, if I doubt what the doctor is saying, or proposed treatment, I think it is only wise to go an get a second opinion. Nobody is infallible, not even doctors.

Don't make fun of that when we do the same thing here lest you want us to trivialize your profession just as easily.

Not sure where I was making fun. That was not my intent. I said numerous times that this site is very useful and you do a great job with the measurements. Perhaps in the heat of the moment you've overlooked that or thought I said it in jest. It was sincere.

 

[Racheski]

"Rabid dogs" and "shows us as more open and helpful than many expect" don't quite go together, don't you think?



For sure I didn't realize the pathos, especially from you Amir. That was a bit perplexing for me. Had no idea about the animosity between you/ASR and Jason/Schiit/social media.

As far as I know, you've rated both Vidar and Aegir as recommended, so I thought that you "liked" them.



I'm not the original poster. I didn't bring in anything. I just agreed with his take, and as I mentioned above, I was under the impression that ASR liked his products.




I always ask for more information, not less. Not sure this is a good analogy. However, if I doubt what the doctor is saying, or proposed treatment, I think it is only wise to go an get a second opinion. Nobody is infallible, not even doctors.




Not sure where I was making fun. That was not my intent. I said numerous times that this site is very useful and you do a great job with the measurements. Perhaps in the heat of the moment you've overlooked that or thought I said it in jest. It was sincere.

You have some very strong opinions about subjects you know very little about. Do yourself a favor - put down the keyboard, get some rest, and come back to this thread with some fresh eyes. This is not going well for you buddy.

 

[amirm]

For sure I didn't realize the pathos, especially from you Amir. That was a bit perplexing for me. Had no idea about the animosity between you/ASR and Jason/Schiit/social media.

You have a penchant for totally wrong conclusions. There is zero animosity between me, Schiit, Jason, etc. I judge performance of equipment and what people say. Please don't ascribe emotions to me that you would if you would have if you were in my shoes. I can't afford to live by your priorities. Mine are to provide objective, reliable information. Emotions cannot enter my equation. To wit, I have showered Schiit with praise when they have produced excellent products: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modius-balanced-dac-review.13769/

"Conclusions
Just a year ago we could not imagine a balanced DAC at $199 let alone from a western company. But here we are with Schiit Modius. Company shows that when it focuses on excellent engineering together with great value, it can deliver.

As a big fan of balanced XLR outputs (to reduce chances of nasty ground loops due to connection to PCs), I am happy to recommend the Schiit Modius."

Really, I don't appreciate you trying to create a wedge between us, the company and it designers. They can produce superbly engineered products. And my contact at Schiit is a joy to work with. You are completely out of line with your commentary here.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

The problem with Schiit is they are a marketing company first to try to conceal poor designs. Most of their products don't measure up to give you an accurate reproduction of your music content.

This is objective?

 

[amirm]

However, if I doubt what the doctor is saying, or proposed treatment, I think it is only wise to go an get a second opinion.

Make sure that "second opinion" is from another doctor, not an engineer at Philips that makes the hospital instrumentation they use. And certainly not from random people online.

 

[Skeptic]

You have a penchant for totally wrong conclusions. There is zero animosity between me, Schiit, Jason, etc. I judge performance of equipment and what people say. Please don't ascribe emotions to me that you would if you would have if you were in my shoes. I can't afford to live by your priorities. Mine are to provide objective, reliable information. Emotions cannot enter my equation. To wit, I have showed Schiit with praise when they have produced excellent products: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modius-balanced-dac-review.13769/

"Conclusions
Just a year ago we could not imagine a balanced DAC at $199 let alone from a western company. But here we are with Schiit Modius. Company shows that when it focuses on excellent engineering together with great value, it can deliver.

As a big fan of balanced XLR outputs (to reduce chances of nasty ground loops due to connection to PCs), I am happy to recommend the Schiit Modius."

Really, I don't appreciate you trying to create a wedge between us, the company and it designers. They can produce superbly engineered products. And my contact at Schiit is a joy to work with. You are completely out of line with your commentary here.

Your response is full of emotion. You are creating a wedge. Don't blame me.

 

[amirm]

Your response is full of emotion. You are creating a wedge. Don't blame me.

Looks like you are just here to antagonize. I have issued you a reply ban. If you want to bring up anything technical, the rest of the forum is available to you.

 

[boselover61]

Looks like you are just here to antagonize. I have issued you a reply ban. If you want to bring up anything technical, the rest of the forum is available to you.

I suggest you be more trigger happy next time. This guy came here to argue and piss people off rather than trying to learn. Instead of entertaining these kind of people rather just ban them straight out