Schiit Saga preamplifier

[tatami]

I need to replace my preamp. The replacement will need to pair with my Quad 606, which drives Quad ESL 63s. FWIW, the audio feed is Roon via a microRendu and a Chord Qutest.

I am considering buying a Schiit Saga. I'm not an audio engineer or scientist so I'm not in a position to evaluate test measurements but there are what look like some pretty impressive ones at https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/saga-preamp-technical-measurements.3780/. I'd really value your take on these, not least because I've read some very disparaging remarks about Schiit kit on these forums.

So, with the Saga, has Schiit managed to design and produce a good product or am I being blinded by science?

Thanks for any insights.

 

[helloworld]

It looks like to me that this “superbestaudiofriend” site has some relations with Schiit......

 

[andreasmaaan]

That’s true, or at least it’s a hub for Schiitheads, but that doesn’t mean that their measurements can’t be trusted does it? Or does atomicbomb have a history?

Anyway, apart from a high amount of power supply noise (just borderline audible in some exceptional circumstances I’d guess), this unit looks like it measures well.

Given it’s a preamp, some measurements at lower volume levels would have been good to confirm it’s linearity and channel-matching when used as intended.

 

[amirm]

I have one for review. So you may want to wait a bit until I measure it.

 

[tatami]

That's awesome, Amir. I'll be fascinated to read your review. Unfortunately, I may have to make a decision before that though. I have a Saga arriving for audition this Friday. Of course, if you could find the time to do some measurements over the weekend…

 

[sergeauckland]

Those measurements at https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/saga-preamp-technical-measurements.3780/ do look pretty decent, but they were done into a 100kohm load. I would be interested in seeing the numbers into a more demanding 10kohm load, especially as Tatami is interested in one to feed a Quad amplifier which has an input impedance of 20kohms. I'd also like to see what the output impedance is, as valve-based preamps tend to be rather higher than SS amps.

S.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Okay, looks pretty good, but note, even in active mode it provides no gain. Apparently the active mode is a near unity gain buffer. The distortion measurements were at .775 volts or in one case less than that. Wonder what they are at say 2 volts? In your case it may work out as the 606 has an unusually low input sensitivity of .5 volts.

And I'd like to see a squarewave at a higher frequency than 20 hz. I'd like to see an investigation of output impedance at different volume settings as passive volume controls have the least output impedance at max volume which is where all the testing was done.

Now please don't take this the wrong way, and I'll not comment upon your answer, but I do have a question. Given that several of Schiit products have ended up with poor or iffy performance why does someone go ahead and consider purchasing something from them? Maybe they make some good stuff, but mostly they don't. So why deal with a maker who you have to be super careful with in order not to get inferior performance? I'm trying to understand the thinking behind that.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Those measurements at https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/saga-preamp-technical-measurements.3780/ do look pretty decent, but they were done into a 100kohm load. I would be interested in seeing the numbers into a more demanding 10kohm load, especially as Tatami is interested in one to feed a Quad amplifier which has an input impedance of 20kohms. I'd also like to see what the output impedance is, as valve-based preamps tend to be rather higher than SS amps.

S.

Not tested, but Schiit claims 180 ohms output impedance for the active stage. I'd like to see output impedance in passive mode at a few different volumes.

 

[tatami]

That’s a good question, Blumlien 88, and I won’t take it the wrong way. I’ve talked to various people and they’ve suggested that the preamp is the weakest link in my system. It’s probably also relevant that I listen almost exclusively to classical music and I’d like to get the most accurate sound I can from my system rather than adding lots of colour. That’s why I’ve been exploring passive preamps.

From talking to other people and reading forum posts, the Schiit Saga seems to get rave reviews (and yes, I realise that most of them are subjective and would get short shrift here). It is also reasonably priced compared to some of the other suggestions I’ve had, which include valve preamps from Icon and Primaluna – there seems to be a school of thought that pairing of the Quad 606 with a valve preamp is the way to go. Well, the Saga offers both options – passive or with valve intermediation (if that’s the right term).

Then I just discovered Audio Science Review, read what people here have to say about Schiit products, got worried and posted for advice. FWIW, I’m also going to audition a Tisbury Mini Passive Preamplifier II, which is less than half the price of the Schiit.

Does that make sense?

Thanks to all who have replied for taking the time. I appreciate your help.

 

[Thomas savage]

That's awesome, Amir. I'll be fascinated to read your review. Unfortunately, I may have to make a decision before that though. I have a Saga arriving for audition this Friday. Of course, if you could find the time to do some measurements over the weekend…

You would not like amirs weekend rates, they even made Bill Gates eyes water.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That’s a good question, Blumlien 88, and I won’t take it the wrong way. I’ve talked to various people and they’ve suggested that the preamp is the weakest link in my system. It’s probably also relevant that I listen almost exclusively to classical music and I’d like to get the most accurate sound I can from my system rather than adding lots of colour. That’s why I’ve been exploring passive preamps.

From talking to other people and reading forum posts, the Schiit Saga seems to get rave reviews (and yes, I realise that most of them are subjective and would get short shrift here). It is also reasonably priced compared to some of the other suggestions I’ve had, which include valve preamps from Icon and Primaluna – there seems to be a school of thought that pairing of the Quad 606 with a valve preamp is the way to go. Well, the Saga offers both options – passive or with valve intermediation (if that’s the right term).

Then I just discovered Audio Science Review, read what people here have to say about Schiit products, got worried and posted for advice. FWIW, I’m also going to audition a Tisbury Mini Passive Preamplifier II, which is less than half the price of the Schiit.

Does that make sense?

Thanks to all who have replied for taking the time. I appreciate your help.

If you're goal is accurate sound, I'd generally stay away from tube designs. Not that it's impossible, just that it's a lot harder get tubes to exhibit low distortion and low output impedance.

This Schiit unit, based on those measurements, looks like it would be transparent (i.e. would not create any audible distortion) under the conditions it was tested under on SBAF. Not sure if the same would hold true when used to actually attenuate the volume, or when driving a lower impedance load like the Quad. But it certainly doesn't look like a terrible choice.

Unfortunately I don't have any recommendation for alternatives, but I'm sure someone here can recommend something.

 

[RayDunzl]

I need to replace my preamp. The replacement will need to pair with my Quad 606, which drives Quad ESL 63s. FWIW, the audio feed is Roon via a microRendu and a Chord Qutest.

Have you tried the Qutest driving the amplifiers, with volume control at Roon?

In other words, no preamp?

 

[tatami]

No, I haven’t tried connecting the Qutest directly to the 606. I think I read somewhere, though, that using software for volume control reduced the quality of feed by removing bits. I’ve probably phrased that all wrong but hopefully you’ll understand what I’m getting at.

 

[andreasmaaan]

No, I haven’t tried connecting the Qutest directly to the 606. I think I read somewhere, though, that using software for volume control reduced the quality of feed by removing bits. I’ve probably phrased that all wrong but hopefully you’ll understand what I’m getting at.

That's definitely possible, but it depends on how many bits you start with. Generally speaking, if you start with 24 or 32 bits and reduce volume by 48 or 96dB decibels respectively, you still end up with 16 bits. It's unlikely your quietest listening level is more than 48dB below maximum from your DAC.

Others here should be able to tell you more about how this will work with your specific setup, but in general, digital is by far the cleanest way to do volume control, so long as it's done correctly.

 

[RayDunzl]

No, I haven’t tried

So try it.

Make sure the volume is low, before turning on the amp, if you want to be most conservative, till you see how it works.

 

[sergeauckland]

With a Quad amplifier, I would use a 'pot in a box' passive as the Quad has 500mV sensitivity, and most source (at least those with decent modern low impedance outputs) will happily drive a 10k pot even if followed by the 20k Quad. Even with quite long cables of 5m, a passive is fine, provided the cables are of low capacitance, like RG59 or RG6. For short cables, under 1m, a passive is no problem with most sources.

The Tisbury is a decent enough unit. The only issue with a passive is just that, no gain, but I've never found need for gain with line level sources, especially with a Quad amplifier.

S

 

[tatami]

I'll give it a go, thank you for the suggestion. I've got a feeling, though, that I'm going to prefer having a preamp as a kind of insurance policy – to make sure I don't blow up my speakers by forgetting to reduce the volume at the start of a listening session!

 

[RayDunzl]

You also have some control over the output level of the Qutest, if I read this correctly:

"Variable output: Fixed, but selectable between 3v (blue), 2v (green), and 1v (red) via dual press of ‘Filter’ + ‘Input’ upon startup"

 

[tatami]

Okay, this is embarassing. It took me a while to discover how to give Roon control of my microRendu's volume.

Now that I've done so, I've connected the Qutest directly to the 606 as suggested and it sounds pretty fantastic like that. Definitely a step up from the Quad 66, which I think is in need of a service.

I've auditioned the Saga and thought that sounded great too, but not necessarily way better than the direct connection. Perhaps I have insensitive ears but I struggled to hear much difference between the passive and valve options it offers.

I also got hold of a Tisbury Mini Passive Preamplifier II, which is less than half the price of the Saga and needs no power. I'm really impressed by it. To my ears it's the nicest of the three options (though the differences between the three are pretty subtle). I would have expected the Tisbury to sound identical to the direct connection. Is it likely that I'm just imagining a difference here?

 

[Ratatoskr]

The Tisbury is a good passive preamp but in my experience the Saga is better, more versatile and remote controlled.

When I sold my Brooklyn DAC+ (which had a volume control) for a Yggdrasil Analog 2 I found the 2V output of the Yggdrasil to be too hot for my Kenzie tube amp: I had limited range on the Alps pot on the Kenzie, which has a 10K ohm input impedance. I wound up auditioning 5 active and passive preamps to fix the problem: Schiit Sys, Saga, Tisbury Mini passive preamp, The Truth unity gain active buffered photocell controlled preamp and Tortuga LDR3.V25 passive preamp. Cost was from $50 for the Sys to $1195 for the Tortuga. I didn't really want to get into the even more expensive autoformers like the Emia.

The Truth preamp I reviewed has somewhat of a cult following but in my system I found it did not sound as good as the Saga. The Tortuga LDR3 has already been reviewed and found to have high levels of THD and IMD. I found the sound to be coloured and would not have bothered trying it if I had read the measurements made by Neurochrome first. Both were returned for refunds.

The Tisbury has slightly better SQ than the Sys and is more versatile but in the end I wound up keeping only the Saga. The Saga is great value, has a remote control, and had the best sound quality of the lot as long as I used it in active tube buffer mode and replaced the stock tube which held back performance. The tube I am using is a 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT. You can find them on eBay or Brent Jessee Recording for $50 to $70.

The Sylvania, unlike the stock Russian tubes from Schiit, does not alter the tonal balance when I switch from passive to active mode on the Saga. What I easily hear in active mode is a wider and deeper soundstage with better imaging. Music is more dynamic with solid bass and an open, extended high end that is never fatiguing. Mid range is just lovely with nice air around performers and instruments. I was amazed to get this level of sound quality from a preamp and tube that cost under $450. YMMV so what works for me in my system may not work for you, but you have the 15 day return policy with Schiit if you don't like the Saga.