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Schiit Saga Grounding and Hum Issues?

restorer-john

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That is insufficient. Those PCB traces can burn out in the case of a short well before the breaker pops in your panel. As I showed in the original post, the accepted practice is with a green wire lug firmly tightened to the chassis.

Absolutely correct. Same requirement in this country as well to have a screw, lug, washer, lock washer and nut/s.

like this:

1545033500755.png


or this (with the paint scraped off underneath):

1545033552917.png


1545033907795.png


Relying on PCB traces and their mounting screws to chassis for an effective earth, would be unlikely to pass in any country I would think.
 
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tranq

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Noob question, how do I determine if my audio gear is properly grounded?

I have bought a bunch of audio gear in the past year. Some of it Schiit, and I want to make sure all my stuff is grounded.

I generally like the Schiit products I own, but they are far from a perfect company and their QC is one area I think they need to improve upon.
 
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amirm

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If it is three-pronged outlet, disconnect the AC mains cable from the wall. Then use a voltmeter like shown in this thread and see if the center/ground pin in the outlet is connected to the metal chassis.
 

tranq

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If it is three-pronged outlet, disconnect the AC mains cable from the wall. Then use a voltmeter like shown in this thread and see if the center/ground pin in the outlet is connected to the metal chassis.

Thanks

What about the wall or floor warts that use two pronged plugs?
 
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amirm

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Thanks

What about the wall or floor warts that use two pronged plugs?
If there is an external power supply then there is no safety issue in the audio product since it runs at low voltage. You just have to make sure the external power supply has passed safety regulations.
 

NTomokawa

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Not exactly on-topic.

Now that I'm working in the commercial/industrial lighting industry, and after having seen too much unsafe crap coming out of China, I have come to value the UL/ETL/CSA certificates for North America, and ENEC/TUV certificates for the EU.

This is also why I require all my home appliances to have such certificates. As is has been said before, a bus-powered DAC without certificates is one thing since USB power can't really harm you, but power amplifiers taking mains voltage must be properly certified.

While UL/ETL/CSA certifications are not mandated by law in North America, I think they really should be. I mean, just look at all this Schiit...

Also my Luxman L-3 is only a two-prong, and has a CSA mark. Granted, it's from 1978...
 

tranq

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Hey @amirm

What do you think is the bigger issue here? Design Shortcomings? or Production Issues?

I'm obviously a novice at this stuff, but it seems to me the grounding issues on both saga and Jotunheim, are production issues that should be caught/fixed with changes to production/QC processes, rather then an inherent design flaw, your performance objectives notwithstanding.
 
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amirm

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Hey @amirm

What do you think is the bigger issue here? Design Shortcomings? or Production Issues?
It is hard to know for sure but my sense is that the designers lack proper experience in safe and comformant design.

Having just finished the Schiit Jotunheim, I can tell you with confidence there was no sign whatsoever of anyone trying to ground the chassis properly. In sharp contrast, I have looked at the amplifier from tiny company Neurochrome and it has that in spades. I even tested a DIY amp where the owner knew to rub off the chassis finish for good grounding.

The problem we have is that we can't get a straight story out of Schiit. They are so worried about their reputation as wonderkid designs that they don't accept any issues about their products. They silently repair some of the issues though so perhaps since the publication of these articles things are different. Unfortunately that is no help for the thousands of products out there with both performance and potential safety issues.

I'm obviously a novice at this stuff, but it seems to me the grounding issues on both saga and Jotunheim, are production issues that should be caught/fixed with changes to production/QC processes, rather then an inherent design flaw, your performance objectives notwithstanding.
Some of it clearly is such as sanding the chassis as I have been doing. But others like having a safety green wire tightly bolted to the chassis are not there. That is a design issue, not production. Per above I am pretty sure they have never instructed their production crew to do anything here until the problems were publicized here. All of this must land on the shoulders of whoever designs these aspects of the unit (Jason?).
 

Ratatoskr

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Schiit appears to be taking equipment grounding seriously, and has bought six Avermetrics, their own APx555, and tests all gear before shipping per this post at HF.
 
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amirm

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Schiit appears to be taking equipment grounding seriously, and has bought six Avermetrics, their own APx555, and tests all gear before shipping per this post at HF.
Thanks. Fascinating that they give themselves the medal for transparency:

1550815771801.png


They have barely acknowledged anything. They need to recall all existing units with grounding issues instead of having people contact them and pay for shipping. Testing units moving forward doesn't help existing customers and safety risk they face.
 

JJB70

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I think the musings of the Schiit duo have to be seen in the context of existing in their own echo chamber, they're addressing the converted and believers and don't really need to worry about anybody else as long as their ditto heads are sufficient in number to support the business. They are not entirely unlike Paul McGowan in developing a sort of fake everyman sense of bonhomie and straight talking (with the exception that Paul M actually does it extremely well whereas at least one of the two Schiit guys seems to be a deeply unpleasant individual). Or in other words they probably really don't give a toss about what we think or say. Which is disappointing (to say the least) when it concerns product safety. Personally I wouldn't buy anything from such a company on the basis that if they're incapable of getting the basics right then why would they be capable of getting the more difficult stuff right?
 

Blumlein 88

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I think the musings of the Schiit duo have to be seen in the context of existing in their own echo chamber, they're addressing the converted and believers and don't really need to worry about anybody else as long as their ditto heads are sufficient in number to support the business. They are not entirely unlike Paul McGowan in developing a sort of fake everyman sense of bonhomie and straight talking (with the exception that Paul M actually does it extremely well whereas at least one of the two Schiit guys seems to be a deeply unpleasant individual). Or in other words they probably really don't give a toss about what we think or say. Which is disappointing (to say the least) when it concerns product safety. Personally I wouldn't buy anything from such a company on the basis that if they're incapable of getting the basics right then why would they be capable of getting the more difficult stuff right?

Indeed if you've followed tests of their gear on this forum, you deserve what you get if you buy the Schiit. The business plan was gullible audiophiles, a feel good story, and half ass it all the way. With some scrutiny they might make it up to 3/4 assing it. They aren't going to turn into a quality purveyor of quality goods.

I started to list a few examples of their poor quality, but there is no point. Several are beyond someone caring even a little bit. It is just Schiit and you know it by thy name. The only honest thing the company principals did was picking the name.
 
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tranq

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Thanks. Fascinating that they give themselves the medal for transparency:

View attachment 22339

They have barely acknowledged anything. They need to recall all existing units with grounding issues instead of having people contact them and pay for shipping. Testing units moving forward doesn't help existing customers and safety risk they face.

You are assuming they know how many units have grounding issues. If the problem is a manufacturing one, they don't know how many units have actual problems. Could be many, could be few.

From what I read on head Fi they are testing all units that come in for servicing for grounding issues. Jason did mention somewhere about chasing a clean 0 on grounding. I like the company and own some products. They are working to get better. Kaizen and all that. They aren't perfect, but are more forthcoming then most private companies I've dealt with. Not as inept as they are made out to be here, but not as perfect as some of their super fans make them out to be.
 
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amirm

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You are assuming they know how many units have grounding issues. If the problem is a manufacturing one, they don't know how many units have actual problems. Could be many, could be few.
That's the thing. They should have contacted all the customers and figured this out. It is not good to leave equipment in people's hands that is potentially unsafe and at any rate, waiting for a chance to create hum and buzz.

They had plenty of reports of such problems in the forums they hang out. They should not have waited for me to point out the cause. They should have bought back some of the buzzing units and examine. I have no relationship with Topping yet I felt bad enough to buy one of theirs back to troubleshoot on my own nickel.

Even though I agree with you with them trying to get better, I still rate them F as a company when it comes to honesty and doing the right thing. They are so far in the hole there that it will take a ton of improvements to get to a better score. They should look at a company like JDS Labs on how to do things right.
 

GoMrPickles

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You are assuming they know how many units have grounding issues. If the problem is a manufacturing one, they don't know how many units have actual problems. Could be many, could be few.

From what I read on head Fi they are testing all units that come in for servicing for grounding issues. Jason did mention somewhere about chasing a clean 0 on grounding. I like the company and own some products. They are working to get better. Kaizen and all that. They aren't perfect, but are more forthcoming then most private companies I've dealt with. Not as inept as they are made out to be here, but not as perfect as some of their super fans make them out to be.
If there's a safety issue, you recall them all, test them all, and fix the ones that need to be fixed.

e.g.,
https://www.toyota.com/recall/takata
The Takata Airbag Safety Recall is the largest recall in automotive history, involving 19 automakers and tens of millions of airbags.
http://fortune.com/2018/12/04/ground-beef-recall-expansion-salmonella-fears/
JBS Tolleson has recalled another 5.1 million pounds of beef on fears it might be contaminated with salmonella.
And the classic,
https://www.upi.com/35-years-after-landmark-recall-Tylenol-deaths-still-unsolved/9661507150232/
1982, cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules killed seven people in the Chicago area -- an unprecedented and unsolved public health scare that led to major industry changes and one of the first massive product recalls in the United States
It's not complicated. It might be expensive, but that's why you design decent products in the first place, if you want to stay in business.
 

tranq

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If there's a safety issue, you recall them all, test them all, and fix the ones that need to be fixed.

e.g.,
https://www.toyota.com/recall/takata

http://fortune.com/2018/12/04/ground-beef-recall-expansion-salmonella-fears/

And the classic,
https://www.upi.com/35-years-after-landmark-recall-Tylenol-deaths-still-unsolved/9661507150232/

It's not complicated. It might be expensive, but that's why you design decent products in the first place, if you want to stay in business.

I don't disagree, just wrote what I'm seeing.
 

tranq

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That's the thing. They should have contacted all the customers and figured this out. It is not good to leave equipment in people's hands that is potentially unsafe and at any rate, waiting for a chance to create hum and buzz.

They had plenty of reports of such problems in the forums they hang out. They should not have waited for me to point out the cause. They should have bought back some of the buzzing units and examine. I have no relationship with Topping yet I felt bad enough to buy one of theirs back to troubleshoot on my own nickel.

Even though I agree with you with them trying to get better, I still rate them F as a company when it comes to honesty and doing the right thing. They are so far in the hole there that it will take a ton of improvements to get to a better score. They should look at a company like JDS Labs on how to do things right.

Yeah I agree their communication on this could be better. I imagine it could break the company if they had widespread issues. I don't agree with your F rating though. The perception on both SBAF and head Fi is that you are a virulent Schiit hater, and are basically out to get them. Maybe you are NwAVguy? I dunno, truthis probably somewhere in between. This website has it's benefits and merits, and shortcomings as well. Just like SBAF and head Fi. I use all three to try and make as informed as a decision as I can.

I should mention I give them a C+ maybe even a B minus. They were good to me on my Vidar repair, but I still need to investigate saga. By which I mean, they did exactly as a company should do. I didn't get any favors. But I didn't have to fight them to get it serviced. And they seem to have given it a close inspection.

And I'm still pretty new, so the ignorance/ inexperience runs deep.
 
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solderdude

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I have seen Amir give positive reviews of some Schiit devices...
To me it appears as though Amir rates on technical merits and measurements not on personal hate.

It could very well be you would rate certain Schiit devices differently than individuals as SBAF or ASR.
Nothing wrong with that as it is a personal opinion.

You could consider that both of the Schitt duo are close personal friends to to SBAF staff which might skew their personal opinions.
I have seen much hate for specific brands at SBAF as well and even more towards Amir.
Also here at ASR hate happens... don't like it but is a part of life.

HF ... well too much opinions there... fun to read but you need to look careful who is posting what and know about their preferences and background.

I don't know Amir nor SBAF staff nor anyone on ASR personally (as in met IRL).

Claiming Amir could be NwAvGuy is fake news and looks like you haven't examined the facts around both characters.
 

tranq

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I have seen Amir give positive reviews of some Schiit devices...
To me it appears as though Amir rates on technical merits and measurements not on personal hate.

It could very well be you would rate certain Schiit devices differently than individuals as SBAF or ASR.
Nothing wrong with that as it is a personal opinion.

You could consider that both of the Schitt duo are close personal friends to to SBAF staff which might skew their personal opinions.
I have seen much hate for specific brands at SBAF as well and even more towards Amir.
Also here at ASR hate happens... don't like it but is a part of life.

HF ... well too much opinions there... fun to read but you need to look careful who is posting what and know about their preferences and background.

I don't know Amir nor SBAF staff nor anyone on ASR personally (as in met IRL).

Claiming Amir could be NwAvGuy is fake news and looks like you haven't examined the facts around both characters.

Aye, the NWavGuy bit was meant to be an obvious be tongue in cheek, and to stir the pot. And yeah, Schiit does well with many folks, less well with others. Truth is somewhere in between as are most things. I appreciate the testing and use it as a piece of the puzzle, but not the whole picture.
 
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