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Schiit Magni Mesh DAC Review

Rate this DAC & HP Amp

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 42 22.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 116 60.7%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 32 16.8%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    191
I just think this forum as a whole prizes measurements well beyond their auditory significance.
Our focus is to see if the engineer designing a product cared to optimize it within their cost constraints. We have extensively, and repeatedly shown that such attention cost nothing. And that we get less than performant products because either the company didn't care or chased myths in audio. Neither one of these is a benefit to anyone. We measure to discover these facts. If we didn't measure, you wouldn't know how close you are or aren't to transparency. If we can get the entire industry to come along, then you can buy with your eyes closed. Until then, one must pay attention to measurements.

As to your broader point, put your ear next to the tweeter of your speaker, with music on pause, and volume turned up. If you hear noise, then channel transparency has not been achieved. Many systems have such audible noise, failing the transparency requirement. Indeed, almost every professional monitor suffers from the same. Yet you would say, from measurements of their amps, that they are transparent, yes?

To that point, I got an email from a reviewer in your position be surprised where even his hypex/purifi system he was testing generated audible noise. So even those amps can't achieve transparency in all conditions.
 
I think ASR is great and wish nothing more for its focus to remain where it is. For absence of doubt, whatever my criticisms of people's interpretations of the measurements may be, there is no substitute to be had at all in the traditional subjective evaluation process. And of course this is just my perspective.

We have extensively, and repeatedly shown that such attention cost nothing.
Where have you shown this? Or are you just saying that there are low-cost products that manage to be optimized? I agree that such products exist; I don't know whether that means it cost nothing or whether the additional costs were amortized.

It's hard for me to separate the reality from the marketing but it seems like Jason and Mike do the lions share of the engineering over there and they make a *lot* of things. So there's the value of their time. True that this is not exactly cutting edge stuff so it's not like you have to spend millions on R&D, but at the same time the engineering is only "free" if they can amortize it over thousands of units. Or maybe it's free in the sense that a better engineer would have gotten it right the first time? Maybe that's the case, but it's not free to hire another engineer who can do it right the first time.

I also don't know the extent to which the incredible measurements of some products are a tradeoff for less stability leading to reliability problems. Not being an engineer I really have no idea; what's your take? Is safety/reliability completely orthogonal to incredible measurements, even from the perspective of how much time/money you spend on a limited budget? Topping is a great example of a company that consistently provides jaw-dropping measurements, but has released one product after another with high failure rates (e.g., PA5 I, L30 I, LA90, A70). Is this coincidental or reflective of the tradeoffs inherent to prioritizing measurements?

As to your broader point, put your ear next to the tweeter of your speaker, with music on pause, and volume turned up. If you hear noise, then channel transparency has not been achieved.
That's just not something I would do. Arguably it's not even safe. There's no reason to do that except maybe to win arguments on the Internet or just have a feeling in your heart that you have the perfect electronics. But now we're just arguing over words, and I already said that the word transparent is contextual and slippery. So wherever I used the word "transparent," just substitute "transparent for the purposes of listening to music in the manner that the overwhelming majority of people listen to music." Is that a compromise? Sure, but everything's a compromise. There's no such thing as perfect information transfer in the analog world; but we can get it so good that we can't tell the difference. And we don't need to construct artificial roadblocks in our way. What value is there in an amp that is hiss free at high volume with your ear pressed against the tweeter? There's might even be *anti* value to that, as having that kind of near-perfection may encourage you to do something dangerous like that.
 
I'm academically interested how the standalone Modi DAC (latest MESH version) would do in tests. Better, I imagine, but would the USB noise issue still be present?
Most likely not as there won't be a common power supply/signal ground in that case.
 
I asked above what bad things we might or would hear when using this product, relating to the measured flaws and the not-recommended conclusion of the review, and it seems like this has produced some fascinating back and forth debate around the issue of audibility.

I love, love, love this site’s championing of objective measurement vs. all the shortcomings of subjective audio reviewing out there. This particular review is valuable too, even if it has raised a certain level of doubt and skepticism that the measurements actually point to a dispositive degree of poor sound quality and compromised value or not.

Every online forum and social media platform has a subjective emotive culture that tends to rally against disfavored objects of criticism, and the arguably exaggerated anathematizing of Schiit is one of this forum’s signatures. Schiit’s track record is definitely mixed but the list of ASR-recommended Schiit products and successful components makes some of the sweeping condemnations seem pretty subjective and tilted.
 
but the list of ASR-recommended Schiit products and successful components makes some of the sweeping condemnations seem pretty subjective and tilted.
A lot of people think making the same tired 'more like Shiit' joke for the 10th year will help them karma farm. I don't think its too much deeper than that.

The discussion back and forth here is good and contains solid real-case scenarios where the distortion may be (and has been in the past) audible, and that's the biggest take away from the review imo.
I also don't know the extent to which the incredible measurements of some products are a tradeoff for less stability leading to reliability problems.
Ultimately the crux of it for me with purchasing choices. I don't think anyone ever will have John Seaber-level customer support, but Schiit have gotten a lot better in that regard in recent years and it isn't the shitshow people like to dig 10 years back to point out.

Compare that to the L30 I and some of the stuff in the DX5II threads and you can see why people might opt for something that doesn't measure as great and isn't going to be audible for them in exchange for better customer support and build quality.

It's ultimately a value proposition for each buyer based on what they value more, and thats ok. In the same way its fine for Amir to say nothxkbye because ultimately he values the best measuring gear. I'm cool with either and not flaming people for it.
 
This "I'm tuning by sound" mindset gets old at times... 2025 releases already proved that you can achieve high-SINAD electronic implementations and still subjectively sound good....
 
That's just not something I would do. Arguably it's not even safe.
Huh? Not safe? There is nothing playing.

And remember, this is a headphone amp. Folks literally stick a little "speaker" well into their ears in the form of an IEM. With room noise blocked as well. If there is a slightest hint of broadband noise, you will hear it. This is why I measure SNR at just 50 millivolt output. And there, you want better performance than this:

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So wherever I used the word "transparent," just substitute "transparent for the purposes of listening to music in the manner that the overwhelming majority of people listen to music."
And that is the problem with your argument. You have to put all those qualifications in there which you can't quantify. It is exactly the kind of argument that did not work prior to ASR formation.

What I aspire for is provable inaudibility of distortion and noise. Once there, the arguments about "my ears are better than yours" go away. With your claim, it does not.

Further, I can prove inaudibility. You can't prove what you said. You would instantly be called on the fact that you haven't even listened to this device so how could you know it is inaudible to another person you don't know?

Above is the reason I want us to be clear about what we are shooting for. It is the foundation of who we are: provable assessments of performance. General guesses have not been effective.
 
Huh? Not safe? There is nothing playing.
I've had music start itself up on its own before. Doing this is straight up dangerous for your hearing.

Regardless, if you can only hear the noise if your ear is right up on the tweeter with the volume turned way up... does it really matter? That pretty much definitively means it isn't audible under normal conditions.

If you're using this with IEMs, you'd have the volume way down.
 
Regardless, if you can only hear the noise if your ear is right up on the tweeter with the volume turned way up... does it really matter? That pretty much definitively means it isn't audible under normal conditions.
There goes that qualifier again... Here is the issue: what you hear may not be as loud as what someone else hears. Their hearing could be more sensitive, their room more quiet, or their tweeter more sensitive.

I don't know why we have to make such excuses when we have gear that doesn't need any at similar cost.
 
There goes that qualifier again... Here is the issue: what you hear may not be as loud as what someone else hears. Their hearing could be more sensitive, their room more quiet, or their tweeter more sensitive.

I don't know why we have to make such excuses when we have gear that doesn't need any at similar cost.
Okay Amir, riddle me this:

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This is what we care about, right?

How much FFT gain do we have here - 30dB? So, worst case here, we're talking about noise that's 90dB down from our maximum output. I understand that is far from ideal given that there are plenty of DACs that don't have this problem, but under what circumstances are we calling this audible?
 
. I understand that is far from ideal given that there are plenty of DACs that don't have this problem, but under what circumstances are we calling this audible?
I have explained this multiple times. You are not understanding the nature of that problem.
 
its optional MESH DAC module.
Any teardown we can see? Curious to know about the DAC Chip and Opamp configurations of such module.
 
FYI this Magni MESH DAC card still uses ESS dac chip, so it is NOT an all new in-house developed DAC.
They describe it as a "DAC topology that fuses our unique time- and frequency-domain optimized digital filter with a standard delta-sigma modulator".

View attachment 514177
is there a higher res image? soe that we can get a good look at the dac chip and opamps used
 
Any teardown we can see? Curious to know about the DAC Chip and Opamp configurations of such module.
I just packed it but have not sealed the box yet. I will see if I can do a teardown tomorrow.
 
What's funny to me is that the amps have to be all discrete but it is not a problem to use op-amps in the DAC cards (and in the recording studios as well) :)
 
We can argue all day long about what happens with noise with no file loaded.
But, as soon as we load a music file, any, I observe hundreds, noise floor (at the recording obviously) obliterates any nice noise figure, even if the music file is at start, no instrument playing, total silence.

And that, at the digital domain, before any analog sins add-up.
The best I have seen is -70db so far, and it sounded, well, like nothing.
 
An SMSL PS200 has better results (sans the amp of course) for less than half the cost.
 
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