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Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amp Reviews

mkolmar

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I ordered the op-amp Heresy in June, 2022, was pleased with the sound, and used it almost daily until this past Friday. While listening on B&W P7 headphones at moderate volume (80dB or so, sensitive headphone), mid-album I heard a crackling noise, big pop, followed by a permanent hum that is unaffected by volume control or a source at the inputs. The incident blew out my headphones. (Grossly missing bass/highs and distortion in left channel -- blown driver. Can B&W P7 be serviced?)

Clearly this is totally unacceptable, as I'm sure the folks at Schiit will agree. I've contacted them, but it is a holiday weekend. I don't know enough about circuit design to understand how this type of failure is possible. Without a rock-solid explanation, no way do I want another of the same model. I will let you know how this is resolved.
 

Doodski

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I ordered the op-amp Heresy in June, 2022, was pleased with the sound, and used it almost daily until this past Friday. While listening on B&W P7 headphones at moderate volume (80dB or so, sensitive headphone), mid-album I heard a crackling noise, big pop, followed by a permanent hum that is unaffected by volume control or a source at the inputs. The incident blew out my headphones. (Grossly missing bass/highs and distortion in left channel -- blown driver. Can B&W P7 be serviced?)

Clearly this is totally unacceptable, as I'm sure the folks at Schiit will agree. I've contacted them, but it is a holiday weekend. I don't know enough about circuit design to understand how this type of failure is possible. Without a rock-solid explanation, no way do I want another of the same model. I will let you know how this is resolved.
Ouch! Sorry to hear about your Heresy problem. Let us know how this unfolds and progresses. :D We are interested in the after sales customer service as we are with the sales support. In some instances the after sales support is more important that the sales support so we keep tabs on companies activities so we know what to recommend. I have a Heresy myself too and reading about a failure is good information (It's not good but I hope you understand what I mean.) for us as I mentioned.
 

T.M.Noble

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I ordered the op-amp Heresy in June, 2022, was pleased with the sound, and used it almost daily until this past Friday. While listening on B&W P7 headphones at moderate volume (80dB or so, sensitive headphone), mid-album I heard a crackling noise, big pop, followed by a permanent hum that is unaffected by volume control or a source at the inputs. The incident blew out my headphones. (Grossly missing bass/highs and distortion in left channel -- blown driver. Can B&W P7 be serviced?)

Clearly this is totally unacceptable, as I'm sure the folks at Schiit will agree. I've contacted them, but it is a holiday weekend. I don't know enough about circuit design to understand how this type of failure is possible. Without a rock-solid explanation, no way do I want another of the same model. I will let you know how this is resolved.
Please do contact customer support. Sorry to hear about the failure and we will make sure you are taken care of.
 

solderdude

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I ordered the op-amp Heresy in June, 2022, was pleased with the sound, and used it almost daily until this past Friday. While listening on B&W P7 headphones at moderate volume (80dB or so, sensitive headphone), mid-album I heard a crackling noise, big pop, followed by a permanent hum that is unaffected by volume control or a source at the inputs. The incident blew out my headphones. (Grossly missing bass/highs and distortion in left channel -- blown driver. Can B&W P7 be serviced?)

Clearly this is totally unacceptable, as I'm sure the folks at Schiit will agree. I've contacted them, but it is a holiday weekend. I don't know enough about circuit design to understand how this type of failure is possible. Without a rock-solid explanation, no way do I want another of the same model. I will let you know how this is resolved.

Sounds like one of the output op-amps failed. I once build a power amp that had 32 opamps in parallel (with small resistors) and it blew one of the opa-amps every now and then.
When it did it took some other op-amps with it before the fuse failed.
The technical problem here is that if one of the op-amps develops a small DC offset voltage at the output the other opamps start 'compensating' for it and direct current to that faulty one. At some point it will overheat and that usually means it will stick to one voltage rail. That destroys other opamps with it.

This would not be a problem for the headphones if a DC protection relay was fitted to the output.

It is not your fault nor could you have done anything to prevent it. It is just bad luck and also happens to the other Magni models now and then. Just not for the same technical reason, just one of the parts failing in those cases. All electronics can eventually fail.

Ask to have it replaced by the Heretic (this one does have DC protection) and replaces the Heresy .... and get your P7 replaced.
 
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Doodski

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Sounds like one of the output op-amps failed. I once build a power amp that had 32 opamps in parallel (with small resistors) and it blew one of the opa-amps every now and then.
When it did it took some other op-amps with it before the fuse failed.
The technical problem here is that if one of the op-amps develops a small DC offset voltage at the output the other opamps start 'compensating' for it and direct current to that faulty one. At some point it will overheat and that usually means it will stick to one voltage rail. That destroys other opamps with it.

This would not be a problem for the headphones if a DC protection relay was fitted to the output.

It is not your fault nor could you have done anything to prevent it. It is just bad luck and also happens to the other Magni models now and then. Just not for the same technical reason, just one of the parts failing in those cases. All electronics can eventually fail.

Ask to have it replaced by the Heretic (this one does have DC protection) and replaces the Heresy .... and get your P7 replaced.
Now I want a Heretic to replace my Heresy that I bought a couple of months back. I want that protection circuitry. I listen at fairly loud levels all the time so I'm not easy on the gear and the protection circuitry would give me ease of mind. :D
 

mkolmar

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RMA is being sent back, based on email with subject "Schiit Repair Complete". Had the amp simply failed, I'd wait for the box to arrive and go on my way. I've emailed to ask whether they sent back the same unit, and raised the uncomfortable issue of what is supposed to be done about the headphones.

Is it possible for headphones to fail in a way that a vulnerable amp could be toasted in the process? Rather than the other way around?

Other than that, I'll wait to see what is in the box and how the customer service rep replies.

B&W P7 appears to be out of production, and would be roughly $150 or more to replace used. Maybe a dead-end there. I got Sennheiser 560S, a worthy replacement, since I don't strictly need another closed-back and the bass extension is more than respectable. A closed-back a shade brighter than the B&W would be great for my purposes, though nothing jumps out of the reviews. But that's another subject.
 

LavenderGooms

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Ah balls. Well this thead has me considering the ol' Heretic/Modi stack after being nearly sold on the E30/L30. Gonna pair up with the Audeze LCD-2C. If it's really THAT good a stack for the price...
 

solderdude

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Is it possible for headphones to fail in a way that a vulnerable amp could be toasted in the process? Rather than the other way around?

A headphone cannot destroy a Schiit amplifier but the (older) Magni's could (even silently) destroy headphones when a specific type of fault occurs.
The newer Magni (Heretic and Plus) have a DC protection and should not be able to do that anymore.

Ah balls. Well this thead has me considering the ol' Heretic/Modi stack after being nearly sold on the E30/L30. Gonna pair up with the Audeze LCD-2C. If it's really THAT good a stack for the price...

Modi + Heretic is just as good as E30/L30.
The E30 has a display though showing volume setting/bitrate/PCM-DSD where the Modi displays nothing and can't do DSD and is limited in maximum bitrate to 192kHz and filters can not be changed. This makes the E30 more flixible.
The L30-II also is no slouch.
 
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LavenderGooms

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Modi + Heretic is just as good as E30/L30.
The E30 has a display though showing volume setting/bitrate/PCM-DSD where the Modi displays nothing and can't do DSD and is limited in maximum bitrate to 192kHz and filters can not be changed. This makes the E30 more flixible.
The L30-II also is no slouch.
Sounds like the Schiit stack is the better buy then! I have no real need for the display, DSD and filters aren't a big deal for me, I've never actually heard a difference, and I listen through Tidal so I'm almost never about 44.1/16 anyway. Thank ya!
 

anon2383

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I went out an bought the Fiio K7 that was just released due to all the glowing reviews, but to my ears I prefer the sound of the Heresy.

The K7 does have better bass and sounds a bit more full, but it's also much more muddled to my ears. The Heresy has better mid-range sounds and music sounds more articulate through it.

Am I crazy or misinformed?
 
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mkolmar

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RMA came back with the only note "op-amps replaced" and that the unit had passed tests. No other explanation. So now I'm stuck with an amp that I'm afraid to plug headphones into. Sell it on? Throw it in the trash?

To be fair, they did turn around the RMA quickly, but I don't get any sense that my comments were heard. If Schiit is confident in this unit, they could for example sell it as refurbished and offer credit toward a replacement. Customer support did not address any of this.

No word back from customer support about the ruined headphones.
 
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4Real

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This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Schiit Magni 3+ and Heresy Headphone Amplifiers. It was kindly sent to me by the company. They both cost US $99 plus shipping from Schiit.

The Magni 3+ is a discrete amplifier implementation whereas the Heresy uses integrated circuits ("opamps") creating a race as to which is better.

Both units come in classic Schiit enclosure but the Heresy has burgundy accent with black top:

The Heresy has a nice red LED indicating if the power is on or not. The Magni 3+ does not. Why? Half the time I could not tell if the Magni 3+ was on or not.

The volume control on both is rather close to the 1/4 headphone jack. As such, even though I have thinner fingers, I could not comfortably change the volume control. Wish the headphone jack was on the left side and volume on the right.

Both units are powered by the classic AC transformer (15 volts AC @ 1.5 Amps) Schiit ships with a lot of its components. They get a bit warm and likely waste more power than the amps themselves. They do give the designer an advantage though over switching DC power supplies as both negative and positive "rails" (voltages) can be produced from AC. Whereas with DC, you have to have another switching converter to generate the negative rail.

The back panel is what you expect:
Yes, the roll of toilet paper came in the box and gave me a good chuckle, putting me in good mood. Have not showed it to my wife yet as I am sure she will question me on what on earth I am testing that comes with toiler paper...

Headphone Amplifier Measurements
Let's start with our usual dashboard of feeding the amp 2 volts and get 2 volts out ("unity" gain):

View attachment 42000

As you see, we are a bit shy of 2 volts output even though I had the volume at max. This means that the low gain mode is a bit less than 1:1. I tested it in high gain mode with 2 volt output and that dropped the SINAD (noise and distortion) to 99 dB. Wanted to test the same with Heresy but there, the high gain is much worse. So I decided to give the benefit to Magni 3+ and stay in low gain mode.

Here is the Heresy output:
View attachment 42001

This is when I sit back with a big smile and thank myself for living in an era of such spectacular headphone performance. Distortion products are around -135 dB, which is about 20 dB better than we need for absolute transparency! Here is our ranking among their competitors:
View attachment 42003

The Heresy pulls ahead of its only competitor: the JDS Labs Atom. The Magni 3+ hangs back a couple of grades.

Note that the Heresy has much better rejection of 60 Hz hum than the Magni 3+ does. A benefit of using IC opamps in Heresy versus discrete circuit in Magni 3+.

Signal to noise ratio at nominal 2 volts out is excellent on both:
View attachment 42005

We are talking 20 bits of dynamic range which matches the best DACs we have.

Dropping the output to just 50 millivolts to represent what level of dynamic range you get with sensitive IEMs and headphones we get a less impressive number:

View attachment 42004

Here the JDS Labs Atom pulls ahead:

View attachment 42006

We are in upper tier of performance though so still good.

Frequency response is dead flat in both to 40 kHz which is great:
View attachment 42007

Key measurement is power into different loads so let's start with 300 ohm in low gain for both:
View attachment 42008

We can see that the Heresy is slightly quieter and at the limit has less distortion, pushing the limit in the measurement system. Neither clips in low gain so if you hear distortion, it is in your headphones.

Here is the high gain performance against JDS Labs Atom:
View attachment 42009

Power output is the same in all three amplifiers. The Atom and Heresy have much lower distortion though before they clip. At nearly 90 dB SINAD, Magni 3+ is doing well too. Just not int he same class.

Here is performance into 33 ohm in low gain:
View attachment 42010

Very good performance from both of them with Heresy sporting lower distortion yet again.

High gain comparison to Atom gives us:
View attachment 42011

The Atom (dashed green) holds the title of lower noise and distortion. But both Magni amps leave it in the dust in power, producing nearly 2.4 watts.

Output impedance was identical and very low (good) on both at 1.3 ohm:
View attachment 42012

The channel imbalance was rather poor in Magni 3+ in the way it immediately showed such even at high volumes:
View attachment 42013

Your soundstage them may shift a bit depending on what the volume setting is. In my brief listening tests though, I did not notice this but more testing needs to be done.

I suspect the same volume control is also used in Heresy but here, it did a lot better:
View attachment 42014

If the volume control is the same, and you have sensitive ears/headphones, then may have to sift through some units to get one with the right match.

This is one drawback of getting an external headphone amplifier versus a combo DAC and Headphone Amp. The latter almost always uses the volume control in the DAC and hence has near perfect channel match.

Headphone Listening Tests
I wanted to get this review out quickly so did not spend extensive amount of time listening. But did go through my set of headphone specific tracks and performed AB tests with levels matched. I fed both amps using my Topping DX3 Pro and used its volume control for adjustment.

I started with the Drop/MrSpeakers Ether CX 25 ohms. Both amps drove it to ear bleeding level in high gain. While I could hear increasing distortion, both were identical in this regard so I am assuming it is the headphone complaining. There was no sonic difference that I could detect.

So I switched to Sennheiser HD-650 headphones. Both amplifiers provided incredible amount of drive, producing stellar response in the form of bass, detail and dynamic range. I tried with a few tracks to tell the two amps apart but I could not. In more careful ABX scenario where I can focus on specific segments I might do better. But in real-time testing, the two amps are the same. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Conclusions
Rarely do we get an opportunity to test two design philosophies in electronics. Yet here we are with two amps with near identical power rating and output impedance trying to impress us. The one with discrete implementation has the story that "it is harder to design so it must be better." The Opamp IC design's story is that an integrate circuit can be far more optimized than a discrete design. And its drawback of low voltage operation, doesn't apply to headphone amplifiers.

The conclusion is simple: the opamp design is superior in every regard to the discrete implementation. It has far less distortion, much less hum and lower noise floor in general. The Heresy also comes with a power LED which I like.

The Magni 3+ is also very competent amplifier and subjectively kept up with Heresy. But my question is why would you buy it? What are you going to do with that "story" of it being discrete? Print it on a sign and put it on your wall? Or sit back and enjoy music knowing that the Heresy provides absolute, provably transparent reproduction whereas the Magni 3+ is very close but may not be there.

My choice is clear. I am happy to give a very strong recommendation to Schiit Magni Heresy. It has exemplary performance coupled with a solid metal box.

Personally though I would not use it due to volume control position. Make sure you are OK with that before committing to it.

--------
As always, questions, comments, corrections, etc. are welcome.

This is a union town which the panthers belong to. I had no idea that there was a contractual restriction against using two panthers in the same picture. So I am facing a fine and appreciate donations to pay for that and/or fight the infraction using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
so you are saying that the measurements are meaningless as you can not tell a difference between the amps when listening to them?
 

LavenderGooms

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so you are saying that the measurements are meaningless as you can not tell a difference between the amps when listening to them?
Yeah that's kinda crazy. I guess what the review means is that since they sound the same, you might as well get the one with the better measurements since it IS technically more proficient.
 

Njoy

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RMA came back with the only note "op-amps replaced" and that the unit had passed tests. No other explanation. So now I'm stuck with an amp that I'm afraid to plug headphones into. Sell it on? Throw it in the trash?

To be fair, they did turn around the RMA quickly, but I don't get any sense that my comments were heard. If Schiit is confident in this unit, they could for example sell it as refurbished and offer credit toward a replacement. Customer support did not address any of this.

No word back from customer support about the ruined headphones.
Very unfortunate.Assuming the unit was still under warranty,they should have replaced it with the newer model.
 

solderdude

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No word back from customer support about the ruined headphones.

I would not give up on this.
Somewhere on this site Schiit stated they will compensate for blown up headphones when it is not caused by a fault other than the amp's.
DC on the output by a broken op-amp certainly would be the amp's 'fault'.

Blowing up a 20mW rated headphone is perfectly possible with a non faulty headphone amp and is the owner's responsibility/error.
The P7 is merely 50mW rated and when connected wired and in passive mode can easily be destroyed (accidentally) by an amp that can supply 3W into it.
 
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mkolmar

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I would not give up on this.
Somewhere on this site Schiit stated they will compensate for blown up headphones when it is not caused by a fault other than the amp's.
DC on the output by a broken op-amp certainly would be the amp's 'fault'.
Schiit customer service rep agreed to replace the Heresy with a Heretic for the $10 price difference and no further shipping charges. The issue of the headphones has not been addressed, beyond that I relayed to the rep that the P7 (fully passive/wired model) was not made to be repaired, B&W does not have any of that model, and they don't make passive headphones anymore. Oh well. But any compensation for the headphones is still an open question.
 

spede

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Uhm does Magni 3+ B have DC protection? Just figured that i use/used rather expensive headphones with it.

Had some sort of protection relay active when 6.3mm adapter of HD6xx went bad, relay shutted sound for ~20 seconds but is that different?
 
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Veri

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Uhm does Magni 3+ B have DC protection? Just figured that i use/used rather expensive headphones with it.
Had some sort of protection relay active when 6.3mm adapter of HD6xx went bad, relay shutted sound for ~20 seconds but is that different?
No they added in in the current generation, that is Magni + and Magni Heretic.
 
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