Schiit Loki Mini+ Equalizer Review

[pma]

Just whether it is a flat line or not. It matters not how smooth the deviation was as you commented.

As to why it shouldn't, if the filters have the right slopes and are distanced correctly, then they should all sum to neutral at max in addition to center. On the other hand if each one has a different gain/slope then you get what I showed. Which is again, non-intuitive.

In case of these simple analog tone controls the only setting where the frequency response should be flat is when you set them to the middle.

 

[Robbo99999]

It is called a brickwall filter, Impossible in the analog domain and would create breaks in the frequency response, that would not be pretty, now you can think ok then not brickwall but steeper slope, higher order? OK but then the chosen center frequency would be more enhanced than anything around it, but then which frequency exactly you want to enhance? Hey I am not saying that it's perfect. It does have limited applications. But I don't think, at all, it is about as you say as "Not well implemented". I do prefer a parametric EQ, even a semi parametric EQ. Or just a sweep able mid with bass and low shelf. Much more flexible, but I think what they implemented, they implemented it "well". Doing real EQ without measurements for the average music listener will create more harm than good. Not many have access to a measument microphone. Schiit customer base are not audio professionals.

@IAmAlwaysSerious showed me his graph he'd done showing the effects of the individual knobs rather than being an amalgamation that Amir showed, so I do think it's better implemented than I did before, but I did reply to him with a few of my misgivings and what I'd imagine would work well for an ideal manual tone control (although I don't know if a perfectly linear seesaw tone control can be done in the analog domain).

 

[Robbo99999]

For EQ that always remain the same, I agree that miniDSP and parametric EQ can do that fine and with more flexibility, at least for digital signals. However, if you are trying to fix recordings that bother you, i.e., you want a more versatile tone control and something that can be adjusted in seconds without interrupting the music, the Loki models are better suited. The EQ on my miniDSP is nothing I'd want to adjust with music playing (I'm not sure it's even possible) to suit a particular recording.

Well, I did admit yesterday to another user that it does have it's use cases for some people.

 

[Robbo99999]

In case of these simple analog tone controls the only setting where the frequency response should be flat is when you set them to the middle.

View attachment 288448

This looks more like a good tone control to me, albeit we know it's from a different device.

 

[amirm]

I believe he's writing that -more or less- because that's precisely the definition of a reference frequency.

On your graph, anything higher in amplitude than the reference frequency will be above the zero dB line. Anything lower amplitude than the reference frequency will be below zero dB on the graph.
Since 1khz is the reference frequency, in your graph, it will always be equal in amplitude to the reference frequecy; the reference frequency is always equal to zero dB.

Then there must still be some confusion about this simple measurement. I set the reference voltage for 1 kHz prior to adjusting anything. This, in tone defeat mode produced a flat line (and almost so with the controls at center). While keeping that same setting, I then turned the dials quarter turn and made measurements. No attempt was made to reset the reference voltage at 1 kHz. In that regard, if the unit boosted 1 kHz, it would readily show up. The fact it doesn't is a function of how its filters are designed. Not because there is anything tricky about the measurements.

 

[IAmAlwaysSerious]

I set the reference voltage for 1 kHz prior to adjusting anything. This, in tone defeat mode produced a flat line (and almost so with the controls at center). While keeping that same setting, I then turned the dials quarter turn and made measurements. No attempt was made to reset the reference voltage at 1 kHz.

I believe you are mistaken about what your testing software did, then. Your measurements run counter to the bulk of the evidence available from numerous sources and go against what one could possibly expect from analog hardware.

You have the greater reputation compared to any individual source, but reputation doesn't shield you from the possibility of a procedural mistake in testing.

Take a solid look at my graph on post #17. You'll notice that it's just an SPL sweep giving absolute values. Tones that were louder (or higher voltage, in this case) in an absolute sense, are higher up on the graph. There was no sort of compensation possible, because I had no reference value at all. (Or you can look at the purple line in the middle as a reference at every frequency, I suppose.)
I never changed the volume input into the Loki during my test, I only changed one knob at a time and ran the exact same SPL sweep again, then overlaid all the results.

I guess to put this simply, there's no confusion on my part. I'm certain that there was a mistake in your testing at some point, because your results can't possibly be accurate.

I'm done arguing about it after this. I've suggested ways you could verify the result, but those seem to have been ignored. You've been offered better worded explanations than mine and they were not treated as nicely as I might have expected. I'm bewildered that you persist in claiming correctness rather than quickly verifying the result.


P.S.: I have tried the experiment I laid out in post #74. I got the results you would expect if my graph were accurate and yours were not. That is, in real life with speakers, turning the third knob while playing a 1khz tone did change the volume out of my speakers (and not just in my imagination, a calibrated measurement mic shows it goes up and down by the amount I expected.
I then played a 50hz tone and twisted the third knob again, I couldn't hear a difference at all in the 50hz tone, and the measurement mic found no meaningful change in volume.
I didn't save the results, because I only did this as a sanity check for myself. I'll rerun this test and save the results tomorrow, if you think it would in any way aid you.

 

[mhardy6647]

Compete with that vacuum tube warmth.
The only drawback -- you need two for stereo.

all you'd ever want to know about this groundbreaking product: https://www.endino.com/photo9.html

 

[shuppatsu]

While keeping that same setting, I then turned the dials quarter turn and made measurements. No attempt was made to reset the reference voltage at 1 kHz. In that regard, if the unit boosted 1 kHz, it would readily show up.

Might it be just an issue of how the APx presents the information? I too find it extremely implausible that all four tone controls would happen to hold 1kHz absolutely steady. Naively, it seems like it would be an extremely difficult engineering task to get the middle knobs to do this, whereas what it claims to do, and what @IAmAlwaysSerious measured it doing, seems completely straightforward. I wouldn't put it past Schiit to do something head-scratching engineering-wise, but then I'd expect some technobabble about how their singular genius solved some long-held problem in audio...

 

[restorer-john]

although I don't know if a perfectly linear seesaw tone control can be done in the analog domain

Some can get pretty close to the classic Quad 'tilt' depending on how well the centre frequencies are aligned and the boost/cut for bass/treble are similar.

If using Baxandall type feedback tone controls, all bets are off as each control affects the boost and frequency of the other when used in conjunction attempting to duplicate the 'tilt' (one step up/the other step down).

I'm always sweeping tone circuits before and after vintage restorations due to those parts (capacitors and resistors) being incredibly sensitive to small drifts having a large effect. It also surprising how bad many new tone controls are, especially on brands that should know better.

The easiest way to set any amplifier/preamp or tone circuit to 'flat' is to feed the circuit a square wave, view on a 'scope and trim the bass/treble controls to produce a flat top, no overshoot or undershoot and you're done. Takes about 2 seconds. Then you'll see how far 'off' the so-called centre point (0) actually is.

 

[Doodski]

If using Baxandall type feedback tone controls

How do you do this? You have a 1TB+ drive in your head? I actually snorted out of great satisfaction to your comment...LoL. Kudos!

 

[Askila]

I own one and love it.

 

[EricBrodersen]

Post 17 and post 95 show graphs that would make much more sense to the majority of readers and are much more representative of how the tone controls work.
Amir, boosting all frequencies to maximum or minimum would in no way reproduce a flat frequency response. That should be intuitive since the boosts and cuts are in four specific bands.
I wish you had spent some time with this equalizer in your system to understood its effects on the total sound.

 

[C. Cook]

This makes me almost scared to know what the Behringer 16 band EQ I got off Amazon for $130 does to my system. At least in terms of measurements. I happen to like how it sounds, though. Corrects for some measured deficiencies.

 

[solderdude]

Why would one call this an equalizer.
It can not be used as such (a graphic equalizer).
It is a tone control that also happens to have 2 'middle frequency' controls that have some (a lot less) influence.
When one needs a device like this then obviously signal fidelity is not the primary goal and measures perfectly well for the task at hand (change overall tonality)

Loki Mini+​

High Quality 4-Band Tone Control​

Yes, tone control. As in, equalizer. And yeah, we know that tone controls have kinda fallen off the planet for the last few decades. But we decided to bring them back with the original Loki Mini. And now, with the Loki Mini+, we’ve boosted the performance—pushing the boundaries super-high-fidelity, low noise, single-discrete-gain-stage, LC-filtered, affordable equalizers even further.

It is not designed to 'correct' anything really except overall tonality.
It can be used to (quickly) adjust the tone of recordings or overall 'tone' of a system a bit to taste.

Lets call a spade a spade... it is a 4-band tone control with the focus on bass and treble.
The word 'equalizer' raises the wrong expectations.

 

[pma]

Yes, but there are some who are unwilling to accept any kind of technically based advice.

 

[Jim Creek]

I was hoping this unit measured better than it did. I would love to purchase an high quality equalizer. There are equalizers in the market place from Behringer and other manufacturers but they are of unknown quality. I am not going to put an electronic device in my system unless I know its performance is top notch.

 

[Robbo99999]

I was hoping this unit measured better than it did. I would love to purchase an high quality equalizer. There are equalizers in the market place from Behringer and other manufacturers but they are of unknown quality. I am not going to put an electronic device in my system unless I know its performance is top notch.

It's more of a Tone Control than an Equaliser though, as Solderdude already pointed out - the controls are too coarse to correct frequency response errors (unless you're lucky), but they're broad enough to affect Tone Control. But as you say, I'd be wary to just accept this reviewed item as the best option for a tone control, I'm expecting that there are better options, although we're a bit scant on such reviews here on ASR I think.

 

[Jim Creek]

I just found that Volumio has a Fusion DSP plugin. It’s a 15 band equalizer with some nice features. That’s my best option for now.

 

[Robbo99999]

I just found that Volumio has a Fusion DSP plugin. It’s a 15 band equalizer with some nice features. That’s my best option for now.

If you have a software option for parametric EQ then that will be your best option for flexible fixing of headphones & speakers, but you'll mostly need to base those corrections on measurements of said devices from either here or on Oratory's website for instance. If you'd playing it from a PC then you have all those options, and likewise from an Android phone for example.

 

[Jim Creek]

I have Monitor Audio Silver 100 Speaker G6 that were reviewed here on ASR. I will use Amir’s FR graphs as a guide.