Schiit KARA Preamp and Headphone Amp Review

[Veri]

Really good info by @solderdude in this thread. <3

 

[MRC01]

... My request for the future is to display the volume step value.
It may not be necessary if you are just enjoying music, but it is very convenient for verification work to be able to accurately reproduce the gain without a measuring device.

It is discrete so you can count clicks. Of course that's more viable with a 32 or 64 step control, than it is with Kara's 128 step control.

 

[SCG]

All passive pre's (especially the ones such as LDR and transformer based) should best not be used with long cables or into 'complex' inputs.In all other circumstances it can be used. Even in low resistance (resistive) loads. In the latter case attenuation will just be a little higher than when a buffer would be used.

My system (noted earlier in this thread) experiences increased attenuation in passive mode vs buffer mode; Δ is ~ 3-4 clicks on the attenuation knob. Haven't measured yet but is audibly noticeable across the attenuation knob's rotation spectrum.

 

[MRC01]

My system (noted earlier in this thread) experiences increased attenuation in passive mode vs buffer mode; Δ is ~ 3-4 clicks on the attenuation knob. Haven't measured yet but is audibly noticeable across the attenuation knob's rotation spectrum.

When you measure it I am curious whether the difference is the same at all volume settings, or it varies.
Because the output impedance in passive mode varies quite a bit at different volume settings.

 

[solderdude]

My system (noted earlier in this thread) experiences increased attenuation in passive mode vs buffer mode; Δ is ~ 3-4 clicks on the attenuation knob. Haven't measured yet but is audibly noticeable across the attenuation knob's rotation spectrum.

In passive mode, when the output R is at maximum (-40dB setting) you will get a 1.8dB drop (3 clicks) when you load the pre-amp with a 20k input.
When you do not want this use it actively (recommended anyway).

As MRC01 already mentioned this difference between active and passive mode will differ when the volume control is at a different level setting.

Fortunately this will only be a drop in level and not affect bass roll-off and no treble roll-off when no long cables are used.
It is simply voltage division and very predictable once the load impedance is known.

 

[MRC01]

... As MRC01 already mentioned this difference between active and passive mode will differ when the volume control is at a different level setting.
Fortunately this will only be a drop in level and not affect bass roll-off and no treble roll-off when no long cables are used.
It is simply voltage division and very predictable once the load impedance is known.

That sounds like one more advantage to the basic ladder having a separate pair of resistors for each volume setting. A 128 step control would have 256 resistors but each volume setting would use exactly 2. No resistors are shared or combined. With this configuration the output impedance changes over a smaller range (peak value is 1/4 the input impedance) and it varies incrementally & consistently across the volume range. So the volume differences into low impedance loads are perceptually smooth & gradual.

The Kara has 15 only resistors total instead of 256 but it shares and combines them in different ways at different settings. Full volume uses only a single resistor, the other settings use anywhere from 3 to all 15 of them. These combinations make the output impedance vary over a wider range (peak value up to 1/2 the input impedance), and not incrementally over that range but varying up and down. That makes the volume control perceptually less smooth and consistent when driving low impedance loads.

 

[cenotaph]

Is it illegal to put phono stages in preamps? Schiit makes a pretty decent one.

Nice unit, I like the separate outputs for subs and stuff. Price is very reasonable.

Yes. I like separate components so I can pick 'em out, upgrade if desired, and the failure of one part doesn't mean the failure of all parts. Today they announced a new product--Skoll--a balanced phono amp for $399. Jason said he'll send one free to people with test gear. I'm looking forward to Amir getting one and telling us his results.

 

[SCG]

Today they announced a new product--Skoll--a balanced phono amp for $399. Jason said he'll send one free to people with test gear. I'm looking forward to Amir getting one and telling us his results.

For clarity, the offer's not on the Skoll phono preamp, it's on the Midgard headphone amp. My understanding to get it for free, you have to test and publish the amp's 'Halo' feature (mixed mode feedback) via the 4-pin output by measuring the headphone's performance compared to the headphone's performance via the TSR output (which doesn't have 'Halo' mixed mode feedback because it needs a ground return to 'work').

While Amir might test the headphone amp's capability if sent one, I doubt he would take the time to use his headphone test rig to measure a set of headphone twice, once via 4-pin and then again via TSR and compare the data of the potential 'Halo' effect. If someone measures and publishes the 'Halo' data, the amp is suppose to be free regardless of the results (positive or negative).

Jason has already stated, "that 'internally' some can reproduce and others can't, but it's still a great 5w/channel, -120db SINAND headphone amp at $219 (the big crazy)." Most likely more info after he presents at the LA CanJam at the end of the month. And this will be a whole other thread.

I'm sure the Skoll phono preamp will go to the usually circuit for testing and review.

 

[AzReciOn]

So, on the one hand, we have Topping A70 for $500...

And on the other hand, we have this for $700...
The passive mode, of course, is impressive, but, as we have already found out, it is absolutely useless (and, apparently, created exclusively for beautiful measurements), so we look exclusively at the active one. What are these weird 2 harmonics? And why is RCA so much worse? And why is there so much excitement about the Schiit brand?... Yes, you have as many as 5 inputs, but they all switch with a single button (in a circle). There is no on/off button on the remote. There is no trigger on the device. What should I pay $200 extra for?...

 

[SCG]

The passive mode, of course, is impressive, but, as we have already found out, it is absolutely useless (and, apparently, created exclusively for beautiful measurements)

Completely wrong, read the thread.

 

[AzReciOn]

Completely wrong, read the thread.

I read it, of course. So why is this mode needed if it has up to 5 kOhm at the output? What should I connect it to? To integrated amplifiers with 50 kOhm at the input? And why does an integrated amplifier need a preamp?
Please explain what exactly I misunderstood.

 

[SCG]

The quote earlier from SD sums it up pretty well:

No, you can even use it with an amp presenting a 10k load. That load, however, should be resistive which it very likely is.
The ONLY thing that happens (when the output R is 5k, in passive mode) is that the attenuation is lower (not -40dB but -43.5dB for amp with 10k input) which really does not matter at all because volume is set by ear and not by dB numbers.

All passive pre's (especially the ones such as LDR and transformer based) should best not be used with long cables or into 'complex' inputs. In all other circumstances it can be used. Even in low resistance (resistive) loads. In the latter case attenuation will just be a little higher than when a buffer would be used.

Passive preamps are not applicable for all use cases as detailed above and elsewhere in this thread with measurements provided (post #207). What equipment anyone chooses to purchase is up to them for a variety of reasons and you make some good notes on the missing features of Kara for some users.

But broadly stating that a passive preamp/mode is "useless and created exclusively for beautiful measurements" is incorrect.

Lastly, you are correct, integrated amps don't require a preamp.

 

[AzReciOn]

The quote earlier from SD sums it up pretty well:



Passive preamps are not applicable for all use cases as detailed above and elsewhere in this thread with measurements provided (post #207). What equipment anyone chooses to purchase is up to them for a variety of reasons and you make some good notes on the missing features of Kara for some users.

But broadly stating that a passive preamp/mode is "useless and created exclusively for beautiful measurements" is incorrect.

Lastly, you are correct, integrated amps don't require a preamp.

Of course, I do not have measurements confirming that the joint use of 5 kOhm at the output and 10 kOhm at the input leads to certain problems, but personally I could not normally coexist with such a configuration - for the reason that the difference in resistances is clearly done for a reason (besides, in this the forum describes a list of possible problems because of this), and I have not met any measurements confirming the opposite either (the point is that the quoted quote is just someone's words), so I would feel worried about this. There is a general rule of 1:10 (and more) - and I do not understand why it is necessary to violate it for the sake of the Schiit brand, especially since with a $200 cheaper device, such compromises will not have to be made.

Thus, I still can't find any other use for the passive mode, except for beautiful measurements.

 

[solderdude]

The 5k output R is only that high at -40dB setting and can be very low at other settings. It varies depending on the volume setting.
This can be an issue with long or very high capacitance cables. Less of an issue with resistive loads. In that case the volume steps may not be 0.6dB each but volume is controlled by ear so a deviation is not a problem.

Some people believe in passive pre-amps. They will love the option and also get a buffer and even another gain.
Schitt just caters for those people. And yes, the distortion in active mode is higher than the Topping and with good reason (low feedback design) but at the measured level (4V balanced) it is still below any audible levels.

People buy Schiit for several reasons. They have more Schiit, they like the form factor looks, they like the company and people behind it, they believe in the mission of Schiit.

It is just a pre-amp with headphone out.

 

[AzReciOn]

Balanced 4 V is really not so bad, but RCA 2 V does not please me at all. The passive mode, of course, does not interfere, if the active one was just as good - and we would have an equal choice. Personally, I am not ready to make such a number of compromises.

"Schiit Mission" - no comments...

If it is a pre-amplifier, then it should be as transparent as possible. If this is a headphone amplifier, then it should be of a good level. Here we see neither the first nor the second.

As a result, we have a device for fans of the brand rather than for those who are looking for the most productive and transparent device.

 

[solderdude]

What is not transparent about it. It clears all audible thresholds. Of course there are better ones but this one seems good enough to satisfy an audiophile and all Schiit fans.

Overpriced... yes, would I ever buy one ? no. But it is not bad.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy it or like it nor is there an obligation to only produce TOTL measured performance.

 

[AzReciOn]

Do you really think it's transparent? For example, I would really like to see a multi-ton test...

 

[solderdude]

Can you really hear THD 0.002% at 2V which will be lower in value at lower output voltages ?
I can't even hear 0.01% so anything below that is audible transparent.
Only noise levels (seem to be excellent) and FR (also excellent) would be the other factors.
It just has to be better than inaudible which it seems to be.

Sure not SOTA but not particularly poor nor audible.
Schiit buyers buy the fantasy (Jason's newest designs that acc to the 'knowledgeable' reviewers sound 'better' than SOTA stuff.
Besides ... people buying this with its balanced outputs would likely be using it balanced as well.

You don't have to buy it and can say that it is not good enough, at least for you and you would be right. That does not make it a fact that it isn't audible transparent. It just means you don't like it and would prefer a Topping. That one certainly measures SOTA.

I would really like to see a multi-tone test.

Agreed, Alas Amir did not make or post one.
Judging from the known measurements it would probably have cleared -80dB over the audible range

 

[charles hidalgo]

Hello all,

Has anyone heard this Kara vs SS stage in the Freya+? Just curious.

Charlie

 

[solderdude]

Is it expected that they would sound any different ?
Measurement wise the Kara is better. Lower distortion, better subbass extension (not audible)

The Freya + is not about 'good measurements', the (active) Kara is measuring better.
I highly doubt an level matched AB comparison would show any audible differences between Kara and Freya + (in SS mode).
There will even be difference shown when nulling both amps (Kara will null better) but that does not mean it will be audible when blind tested.

That said, subjectively, even when using the Freya + in SS mode you can still see the tubes which certainly influences perception even when one knows it is in SS mode.