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Schiit Jotunheim 2 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

devopsprodude

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You will find huge steaming piles of it in their marketing 5 years ago. Do a Google search for Schiit and audible benefits of multibit. You will find many articles and interviews with the principles touting the huge audible superiority and holographic imaging of multibit processing that you have to "hear to believe."

Their marketing has changed, whether it is because it was no longer effective, or because they now better understand how digital works, I don't know.
Yeah, they probably had to change when they put out stuff that measures a lot better for the ASR crowd. Kind of hard to market your well measuring stuff as such, while selling the rest with pure BS. I rather like their current approach of "This was our goal, we think this meets our goal, if you want something else from us, great, if you don't want anything from us, that's fine too."
 

PeteL

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Interesting debate here. Again, I’ve said this before, I do believe in science and measurments, but I also do believe that people can prefer the sound of a piece of equipment than an other. I also believe that there is more to an audio product than it’s SINAD at 1K 4V, and also we have more to look at here but it’s still a snapshot, I don’t think it tells us everything about a product. the way they are “ranked” based on this, we sometimes feel that the debate turns strictly to: blue, great green ok, yellow mediocre and red broken.

Now, Ibelieve that this“prove your impressions by a blind test” go-to argument winner is getting old. First, it’s complicated, the easy ones, comparing a bunch of file and go: see, you can’t hear a 1% thd, therefore... see, you can’t here 50 ps jitter therefore... well you get the drill, but never anyone have been able to show me some blind test results between products reproducing actual music trough actual speakers.

That brings me to the subject of the debate. My CD player includes a dual burr brown R2R dac chip (PCM1704), obviously limited to cd format, but my CDs to my ears sound more “correct” trough the onboard dac of my player than fed by spdif trough my Topping E30. Really I don’t really care if you think it’s my imagination, they don’t sound the same and I have no doubt I would pass a blind test. They are different sounding, and yes I could objectively be called a “trained listener”.

Basically no one can ever show me examples of blind tests that says for example “ If the sinad pass 16 bit of transparency, they sound the same” only “ I can prove you that you can’t hear x% distortion” It’s different.

I’ll show you a blind test result, show me one that says otherwise. OK not about DAc, but one that showed that 6 out of 8 panelist choosed the same preffered vintage receiver out of 3 including a modern one, it says what it says, people can find certain characteristic of audio reproduction to be better than other, regardles of the SINAD


http://archive.ph/liYR5#selection-299.0-341.1
 
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threni

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That brings me to the subject of the debate. My CD player includes a dual burr brown R2R dac chip (PCM1704), obviously limited to cd format, but my CDs to my ears sound more “correct” trough the onboard dac of my player than fed by spdif trough my Topping E30. Really I don’t really care if you think it’s my imagination, they don’t sound the same and I have no doubt I would pass a blind test. They are different sounding, and yes I could objectively be called a “trained listener”.

You can't really have both "to my ears" and "sound more correct" in the same sentence. It's like having a calculator which keeps rounding things the wrong way and saying "to my eyes the calculations are more correct". You can prefer your CD player, sure. Makes sense, assuming there's a difference that can be measured, which of course there will be because "they don't sound the same". But one of them has higher fidelity to the original source than the other, and that can be measured/tested etc.
 

PeteL

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You can't really have both "to my ears" and "sound more correct" in the same sentence. It's like having a calculator which keeps rounding things the wrong way and saying "to my eyes the calculations are more correct". You can prefer your CD player, sure. Makes sense, assuming there's a difference that can be measured, which of course there will be because "they don't sound the same". But one of them has higher fidelity to the original source than the other, and that can be measured/tested etc.
Let’s start, with this premisse that they don’t sound the same. Now can there be an argument that CDs were mixed and mastered trough converters of the cd era, not the high res 384 k 24 bits oversampling one that may objectively reproduce with “higher fidelity” but higher fidelity than what? if unperfect fidelity was what the mastering engineer was hearing?
 
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Xyrium

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I personally love the look of the silver knob on the black chassis. Not too horrible on the performance side. The 50mV S/N ratio was probably the only thing that really toasted it. Nice aluminum chassis as well. Tough call, me thinks. I wish they'd let go of the multibit mystique, it just sucks.
 
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You can't really have both "to my ears" and "sound more correct" in the same sentence. It's like having a calculator which keeps rounding things the wrong way and saying "to my eyes the calculations are more correct". You can prefer your CD player, sure. Makes sense, assuming there's a difference that can be measured, which of course there will be because "they don't sound the same". But one of them has higher fidelity to the original source than the other, and that can be measured/tested etc.
the standard measurements we use are actually pretty basic and don't represent all the sound qualities exhibited by equipment designed to play music, there is a false assumption that some have about any (or all) DACs, that they are perfectly replaying the music from a digital recording, very few of us are aware of the inner workings of the conversion topology and the filters deployed by some of the designers that have significant and notable effects on the tone and realism on playback, and are not the same, and some do not sound the same, so much so that some DACs have higher audible fidelity to the original performance that was recorded and none of the standard measurements we use will really show that, very high SINAD for example will not guarantee realism because it does not describe the signal conversion qualities, just the ratio of signal strength to spurious noise and whether the signal is distorted, but not the quality of the conversion of the signal to begin with, which is impacted by the type of DAC circuit and the filtering used on the signal. A lot of DS DACs do sound pretty much the same, differentiated perhaps by higher SINAD measurements but sound the same. Then there are some DACs out there that do sound different but you have to actually get those DACs and listen and compare for yourself otherwise you are just reading their specs and making (false) assumptions that DAC audio is all tuned and processed the same in all DACs.
 

Dana reed

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Because audiophoolery. Providing what some customers want (multi-bit magic and all that).
I just like a bigger volume knob. and if it's heavier, it holds down the peeling veneer on my nightstand better.
 

Dana reed

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What is the big difference between this and version 1? The pre-outs?
Functionally, the main one is that you can mute the preouts with a switch now. so if you have both monitors and headphones, you don't have to turn off the monitors when not using them.
Other than that, it's more power, lower distortion, both of which probably don't matter that much for general use because they were already likely inaudible. and considering 95% of my music is 44/16 and will be for the forseeable future, I likely won't need to upgrade my original Jotunheim or THX AAA 789 for a long time
 
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so much so that some DACs have higher audible fidelity to the original performance that was recorded and none of the standard measurements we use will really show that, very high SINAD for example will not guarantee realism because it does not describe the signal conversion qualities, just the ratio of signal strength to spurious noise and whether the signal is distorted, but not the quality of the conversion of the signal to begin with, which is impacted by the type of DAC circuit and the filtering used on the signal.
In my DAC reviews, I show filter characteristics. That aside, I measure digital bits getting fully converted to analog. Everything in the DAC is used to do that. Indeed the DAC doesn't know the difference between a test signal or "music." They are all varying digital bits that it converts to equivalent analog values. The device could not be more "dumb" and straightforward than this.
 

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Everyone agrees that measurements matter, and then most of them go into the usual "their highs sound like peaches, mids of exquisite silk, bass like Valhrona chocolate" nonsense.
That's less nonsense than saying you can hear -85 db levels of noise.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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In my DAC reviews, I show filter characteristics. That aside, I measure digital bits getting fully converted to analog. Everything in the DAC is used to do that. Indeed the DAC doesn't know the difference between a test signal or "music." They are all varying digital bits that it converts to equivalent analog values. The device could not be more "dumb" and straightforward than this.
But does the device handle a 1 kHz tone the same way it handles a complex set of musical signals?
 
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amirm

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But does the device handle a 1 kHz tone the same way it handles a complex set of musical signals?
It does. It doesn't know the difference. There is no intelligence in a DAC.

My tests are a lot more than 1 kHz anyway. IMD is dual tone of 60 and 7 kHz. Jitter is dual square waves with tons of harmonics, and multitone has 32 tones. THD+N vs frequency sweeps the entire audible range and extends response to 90 kHz.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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You will find huge steaming piles of it in their marketing 5 years ago. Do a Google search for Schiit and audible benefits of multibit. You will find many articles and interviews with the principles touting the huge audible superiority and holographic imaging of multibit processing that you have to "hear to believe."

Their marketing has changed, whether it is because it was no longer effective, or because they now better understand how digital works, I don't know.
How is this hype? They are literally telling you to try their products and hear them for yourself. If they feel their dacs sound holographic and the competition doesn't, how does that distinguish MB from DS ads that say their dacs do exactly the same thing? You seem to be taking issue with the fact that Schiit produces ad copy. You understand these are money making enterprises, not non-profit academic institutions, do you not?
 

don'ttrustauthority

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It does. It doesn't know the difference. There is no intelligence in a DAC.

My tests are a lot more than 1 kHz anyway. IMD is dual tone of 60 and 7 kHz. Jitter is dual square waves with tons of harmonics, and multitone has 32 tones. THD+N vs frequency sweeps the entire audible range and extends response to 90 kHz.
Do you hear a difference between a Modi 2 with usb and a Aries or a $1000 perfectly measuring ds? The reason I ask is because if measurements are below a certain level you describe the device as subpar. But if you can't hear a difference, what is the shortcoming?
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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You can't really have both "to my ears" and "sound more correct" in the same sentence. It's like having a calculator which keeps rounding things the wrong way and saying "to my eyes the calculations are more correct". You can prefer your CD player, sure. Makes sense, assuming there's a difference that can be measured, which of course there will be because "they don't sound the same". But one of them has higher fidelity to the original source than the other, and that can be measured/tested etc.
What's wrong with saying "to my eyes the [incorrect] calculations are more correct?" If your eyes distort what they see in the opposite direction of what the calculator miscalculates, you have a correct result.
 

don'ttrustauthority

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What's wrong with saying "to my eyes the [incorrect] calculations are more correct?" If your eyes distort what they see in the opposite direction of what the calculator miscalculates, you have a correct result.
Do you understand that producers mix and master for the equipment you have, not the equipment which is accurate?
 

Veri

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More future proof? You can get USB C to mini cables no problem...The type of USB connector doesn't really have much to do with being future proof in this space, IMO.
USB-C is absolutely more future proof, in 5 years time there probably won't be much else of older connectors still present on devices.

I don't personally have a bias towards any particular maker or DAC implementation and certainly didn't expect some of the comparatively lower cost multibit and R2R DACs to compare at all, but when I started listening it was pretty obvious, when you hear a voice that goes from sounding recorded on one DAC to sounding more like standing in the room with you on another DAC and you start to investigate further, R2R and multibit along with filtering algorithms not just for frequency but for longer range timing, there is something different and it is not really hard to hear if you have revealing speakers or headphones and otherwise neutral signal chain.
There it is :rolleyes::rolleyes:...

Do you understand that producers mix and master for the equipment you have, not the equipment which is accurate?
...in direct contrast with "not the equipment which is accurate?". Or is a "revealing" set-up not an "accurate" one?

the standard measurements we use are actually pretty basic and don't represent all the sound qualities exhibited by equipment designed to play music, there is a false assumption that some have about any (or all) DACs, that they are perfectly replaying the music from a digital recording, very few of us are aware of the inner workings of the conversion topology and the filters deployed by some of the designers that have significant and notable effects on the tone and realism on playback, and are not the same, and some do not sound the same, so much so that some DACs have higher audible fidelity to the original performance that was recorded and none of the standard measurements we use will really show that, very high SINAD for example will not guarantee realism because it does not describe the signal conversion qualities, just the ratio of signal strength to spurious noise and whether the signal is distorted, but not the quality of the conversion of the signal to begin with, which is impacted by the type of DAC circuit and the filtering used on the signal.
So. much. broscience. Like sorry you're using a lot of pretty words but is there anything to back up the things you say? Do you have an electrical engineering or signal processing background? Or can you quote any literature about the things you claim?
 

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Thanks for the review Amir.
Here's some honesty from Schiit's product page

I would guess Schiit still makes the Asgard and Jot just to placate their small but vocal hardcore fan base at SBAF and HF. I would assume that the Hearsay and Magnius units have much more sales volume then these archaic discreet designs as well as higher profit margins.
 

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Based on the measurements posted I think Amir was too charitable with his final assessment and recommendation. Even the Schiit fans at SBAF seemed bemused. Even without taking into account bang-for-buck which puts the Jot in a more negative light, the measurements here are simply unimpressive. Few, if any headphones, need the power the Jot 2 outputs and Schiit needs to stop offering/selling those awful add-on DAC modules. Just why?? The $99 Atom, designed over two years ago, still beats this 5lb brick, ranking 7th on the SNR 50mV graph vs 28th for the Jot 2.

Image 1.png
 
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DSJR

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the standard measurements we use are actually pretty basic and don't represent all the sound qualities exhibited by equipment designed to play music

Sorry sir, I cannot agree with that statement, not these days! Our ears really are pretty crap in term' of 'resolution' but the mind behind them can invent all manner of flights of fancy to justify an opinion. All this fine filigree detail, air and 'atmosphere' in recorded music really isn't very far down in level (just listen to the non-speaking channel on a phono cartridge to hear what '-30dB' actually sounds like).

I had my epiphany some time back as to what reality sounds like and how many good 1950's recordings (without all the 'tech' and 'mastering' in the way) can capture this raw honesty and 'truth' quite well when played on decent quality larger monitors. Digital seems to retain this far better than 'analogue' does so any 'tech' which makes a human voice sound 'nicer' tends to make me deeply suspicious, as real voices can have an 'edge' or 'starkness' to them that we take for granted in day to day living yet we don't always like in reproduced music - usually the speakers' fault but 'we' always look to the innocent party here - the source.

Apologies if the above seems confusing. I'm done with the notion we don't measure everything properly. maybe we don't always *interpret* what the measurements tell us, but our ears are crap pretty much really I think, although they're all we have for ourselves ;) 'Nice sounding' audio almost always has deliberate flaws or colourations built in - and then you start to find every recording tends to sound equally 'nice' and there's little to no differentiation between recordings or productions - that's when alarm bells start to ring for me if not others.
 
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