Schiit Bifrost + Asgard 2 - any potential issues?

[Karister]

Hello all,

I have read several threads here regarding Schiit Audio and I understand that it is far from perfect. However, I still want to give it a try and replace my Marantz HD DAC1 due to LOKI Mini tone control. I was unable to find any other company offering DAC, headphone amp and EQ with coherent external design.

I am going to try Bifrost Sigma-Delta 4490, Asgard 2 and Loki Mini. Is anyone aware of any possible issues with this stack? I have read about grounding issues in Jotunheim and about Asgard 1 killing headphones plugged into it when turning on. Are products that I am gong to try free from such surprises? I did not find anything like that about them with Google but wanted to ask here as well because some people tend to disassemble and measure devices here.

Many thanks for any advices.

 

[Jorj]

I guess if you're looking for advice, I'd offer the following:

• What is your source? Digital EQ is often a better solution, IMO, so unless you love twiddling knobs, not sure why you're set on the Loki.
• This stack will make pleasant noises for $800 and make a substantial pile of gear on whatever surface you place them. May I ask why you're not looking at lower-cost integrated solutions? If you're dead-set against ChiFi gear like Topping or SMSL, there are still a few other really decent makes that will perform as well or better for less (JDS Labs?)
• You'll still have to deal with one wall-wart with your suggested stack, FYI.

 

[Karister]

Thank you for answer. Full story then:

Currently I have two audio setups:

• Denon Heos Link HS2 acting as a network player and DAC for my stereo. Denon is connected to stereo amp via RCA.
• PC as a player and Marantz HD DAC 1 for my headphones. PC is connected to Marantz via toslink.

I love convenience of Denon Heos (I ripped CDs into pendrive and control playlists from smartphone) and I wish to use it in my both setups. I have auditioned over 20 headphones and found almost perfect one. Currently I am using APO parametric EQ for Windows to fix this "almost".

So, my ultimate goal is to replace PC with Heos in headphones audio and keep possibility of slight tweaking sound signature of my headphones. My idea is to have a hardware EQ to achieve it. They seem to be extremely rare, though. Nothing from Denon, Marantz, Questyle, Klipsch, Aune and other brands that are offered in local stores. Actually there is no Schiit stockist in Poland either. I would need to import from Netherlands. Hardware EQs are sold in DJ shops but they look terrible. Main goal is desired sound signature but good looking design is also very important. This is subjective, of course. Silver finish of Schiit is ok for me.

That's why I am considering buying Schiit Audio. They offer a hardware EQ (not very advanced one but fits my needs) together with coherently looking DAC and amp. I am not aware of any other company offering this kind of solution. Please, let me know, if you are. I would connect Heos to Bifrost with toslink cable. Or I could split RCA output of Denon. This way it will act as DAC for both setups and I could resign from Bifrost. But I still need EQ and headphone amp as my Marantz has no tone control and no RCA line in to connect to EQ.

I wonder if Schiit noises are really audible problem in practise. There are huge differences in sound signatures of different headphones. But I never managed to have high % in blind AB comparisons between DACs or Amps.

What do you mean by dealing with wall-wart? Don't I simply plug it into 230V?

 

[Jorj]

Ah, OK, thanks for the fuller picture. I cannot speak to the HEOS Link Toslink output, there could potentially be dragons there, but for now let's assume it is great.

The Schiit stack you mentioned will probably do a fine job for you. As of my latest info, the issues with popping and hum have been resolved. Personally, I've experienced several quality issues with Schiit gear requiring them to be sent back, and with the issues that Amir and others have noted with regards to safety, I'd be a bit nervous. Especially since you are in Poland and have no direct access to a dealer. Shipping and VAT are going to add significantly to your costs.

If there are no quality issues and you don't mind a lot of interconnects, you'll find the Schiit stack free of coloration and distortion. You'll be happy, I'm sure.

The wall-wart is the transformer for the Loki Mini. The Bifrost and Asgard 2 both have internal power supplies, so they just use a cord to the wall outlet. If all three had external transformers, then I would think that to be a rather ungainly arrangement, but that is not the case.

Lastly, if you look in my signature, you'll see I have similar capabilities with my Cayin N3 (no knobs, but fully digital EQ). I can control that little guy remotely from my phone with the Hiby app, too! No direct network streaming, but I think many higher-tier DAPs have streaming also. Bonus, they are portable!

 

[Karister]

Thanks.

As for Denon Heos toslink out, I know nothing about it, but I never managed to hear difference between toslink and coax cable when connecting it to Marantz. I have also tried using Marantz and Denon as DACs for my stereo and never noticed any crucial difference. I really admire people who flame each other about DACs and cables for months. None of them ever agreed to participate in blind test saying that only deaf person would not hear the difference. Huh. In polish forums people tend to say that optical connection is the worst one. But no arguments again. They just hear it... I thought that optical connection helps with getting rid of ground loops.

I will risk with Schiit. I have 14 days to return (to Netherlands) if I don't like it. With VAT and shipping all three devices cost +/- the same as my Marantz in Poland which is acceptable for me. Also, if I like Schiit, I will sell Marantz. I found Amir's topic regarding Schiit Jotunheim grounding issues and some Reddit thread where guy was shocked when trying to fix broken switch. I saw some complaints about Valhalla 2 too. And rattling older version of Bifrost. That's why I have created this thread. I am trying to find out if Asgard 2 and Bifrost 4490 have similar issues as well. Currently found nothing. Which is good, I suppose. Anyway, I'll give them a chance. If they fail, I will return and be richer in audio experience.

Regarding Cayin N3, DAP with digital EQ sound fine to me. No PC and tone control on board. But I don't know if it would be able to drive my Hifiman Aryas. They are 35Ohm and 90dB/1mW planars. When connected directly to my Smasung Galaxy S6, they sound just terrible. Completly no bass, no treble extension. Only poorly sounding mid tones remain. Mac Book Pro, on the other hand, runs them fairly ok. Cannot make it loud but sound quality is ok. No idea how portable DAPs perform here but according to specs N3 outputs 130mW@32Ohm. No idea about MacBook. But I am starting to wonder if I really need a full-sized headphone amp. Even with 1mW 90dB is much more than I need. I don't tend to listen loud, so probably even less then 1mW would be good enough. If I am not mistaken every 10dB more requires ten times the power. I don't think that I listen louder than 70dB. So 1/100mW would be enough then? Or would low power output degrade low and high tones performance, as it happened with my mobile phone. How do you think?

 

[Jorj]

Regarding Cayin N3...<snip>...How do you think?

Oh, it will definitely need an amp to drive anything other than IEMs. I'm a cheapskate with a thing for buying new gadgets, so I try to find the most economical device that does the things I want.

As you can see from my signature, my desktop rig is all sorted out already, and I do all my EQ from the PC. Your desires are different and the Schiit stack will probably be fine for what you want to do. I gave up on them after multiple engineering and design issues, but they definitely have their devotees. As far as I know, the boxes you mentioned should do what you want.

 

[LTig]

I guess if you're looking for advice, I'd offer the following:

• What is your source? Digital EQ is often a better solution, IMO, so unless you love twiddling knobs, not sure why you're set on the Loki.
• This stack will make pleasant noises for $800 and make a substantial pile of gear on whatever surface you place them. May I ask why you're not looking at lower-cost integrated solutions? If you're dead-set against ChiFi gear like Topping or SMSL, there are still a few other really decent makes that will perform as well or better for less (JDS Labs?)
• You'll still have to deal with one wall-wart with your suggested stack, FYI.

For $200 more you could get an RME ADI-2 DAC which should be able to fulfill all your needs (and probably more), has very high quality (sound and build) and very good customer support.

 

[VMAT4]

For $200 more you could get an RME ADI-2 DAC which should be able to fulfill all your needs (and probably more), has very high quality (sound and build) and very good customer support.

The nature of our hobby, for a few dollars more the optimal solution is available. But, from what I've read of the RME unit this is indeed the case here! Also the ADI-2 offers crossfeed!

 

[M00ndancer]

For $200 more you could get an RME ADI-2 DAC which should be able to fulfill all your needs (and probably more), has very high quality (sound and build) and very good customer support.

Actually the Schiit stack would cost €876 with taxes. The RME ADI-2 DAC is €989 including tax on Thomann. I would save up and get the RME, so much more convenient with a single box.

 

[watchnerd]

Actually the Schiit stack would cost €876 with taxes. The RME ADI-2 DAC is €989 including tax on Thomann. I would save up and get the RME, so much more convenient with a single box.

Once upon a time I had some Schiit. Well, I still do...it's just in the closet.

I now have the pro version of the RME ADI-2 and there is no comparison between the two in quality and functionality.

 

[JJB70]

In this case I think my advice would be to either go up to get the RME or go down to some of the lower cost but good performing options from Topping, SMSL etc. The RME option is as good as it gets and is a lovely piece of kit but in strictly audible terms you can get audible transparency for a lot less than the Schiit option.

 

[Karister]

This RME EQ looks good. It is exactly the same price tag as Schiit stack in my country.
Edit: Does RME have mute relay to safely turn it on with headphones plugged in?

 

[M00ndancer]

This RME EQ looks good. It is exactly the same price tag as Schiit stack in my country.
Edit: Does RME have mute relay to safely turn it on with headphones plugged in?

From the manual:
"And there is more. The headphone sockets of the ADI-2 DAC have sensor contacts. The unit always knows when a headphone jack is inserted or removed. The DSP uses this information for several superior, partly never-seen before features. For example the ADI-2 DAC activates the mute relay half a second after the phones plug has been plugged in, then the DSP ramps up the volume slowly from lower level to the last used state. "

 

[jsrtheta]

Thanks.

As for Denon Heos toslink out, I know nothing about it, but I never managed to hear difference between toslink and coax cable when connecting it to Marantz. I have also tried using Marantz and Denon as DACs for my stereo and never noticed any crucial difference. I really admire people who flame each other about DACs and cables for months. None of them ever agreed to participate in blind test saying that only deaf person would not hear the difference. Huh. In polish forums people tend to say that optical connection is the worst one. But no arguments again. They just hear it... I thought that optical connection helps with getting rid of ground loops.

I will risk with Schiit. I have 14 days to return (to Netherlands) if I don't like it. With VAT and shipping all three devices cost +/- the same as my Marantz in Poland which is acceptable for me. Also, if I like Schiit, I will sell Marantz. I found Amir's topic regarding Schiit Jotunheim grounding issues and some Reddit thread where guy was shocked when trying to fix broken switch. I saw some complaints about Valhalla 2 too. And rattling older version of Bifrost. That's why I have created this thread. I am trying to find out if Asgard 2 and Bifrost 4490 have similar issues as well. Currently found nothing. Which is good, I suppose. Anyway, I'll give them a chance. If they fail, I will return and be richer in audio experience.

Regarding Cayin N3, DAP with digital EQ sound fine to me. No PC and tone control on board. But I don't know if it would be able to drive my Hifiman Aryas. They are 35Ohm and 90dB/1mW planars. When connected directly to my Smasung Galaxy S6, they sound just terrible. Completly no bass, no treble extension. Only poorly sounding mid tones remain. Mac Book Pro, on the other hand, runs them fairly ok. Cannot make it loud but sound quality is ok. No idea how portable DAPs perform here but according to specs N3 outputs 130mW@32Ohm. No idea about MacBook. But I am starting to wonder if I really need a full-sized headphone amp. Even with 1mW 90dB is much more than I need. I don't tend to listen loud, so probably even less then 1mW would be good enough. If I am not mistaken every 10dB more requires ten times the power. I don't think that I listen louder than 70dB. So 1/100mW would be enough then? Or would low power output degrade low and high tones performance, as it happened with my mobile phone. How do you think?

I have read your initial post, as well as your following posts. And given the negative points you listed at the start I have to wonder just why you would purchase anything from this company.

I've never owned any of Schiit's products, so I am not in any position to judge based on personal experience. But you sound a little like "Yeah, it burns a ton of oil, and I know the transmission is crap and will need replacing, and yeah, there was that collision risk from the steering failing, but I'm going to go ahead and buy it."

 

[garbulky]

So some real world feedback here. I know it's easy to get caught up in distortion and grounding issues. Even I was surprised at the quality issues being encountered here.
I do keep an open mind because Amir is testing used units here whose provenance and history and usage we have no clue about. However there is a pattern that doesn't look good.

But... I've actually used this stuff and
1. Never got shocked. Never had loose transformers rolling around.
2. Things sounded great.
3. Things looked great.

So, no it's not a bad purchase. I've used the Saga, Gungnir multibit, and Freya.

Only bad experience was that I didn't care for the user experience regarding their remotes or lack of remotes depending on which gear I tried.

 

[richpjr]

So some real world feedback here. I know it's easy to get caught up in distortion and grounding issues. Even I was surprised at the quality issues being encountered here.
I do keep an open mind because Amir is testing used units here whose provenance and history and usage we have no clue about. However there is a pattern that doesn't look good.

But... I've actually used this stuff and
1. Never got shocked. Never had loose transformers rolling around.
2. Things sounded great.
3. Things looked great.

So, no it's not a bad purchase. I've used the Saga, Gungnir multibit, and Freya.

Only bad experience was that I didn't care for the user experience regarding their remotes or lack of remotes depending on which gear I tried.

It always strikes me as odd the love/hate feelings people have for Schiit. People here have a strong, mostly negative opinion based on the tests done on various gear and I understand some of the criticism. But go to other sites and the opinion is vastly different and people are very pleased with the gear. I won't say people have agendas, but there are certainly different things people prioritize on the various sites.

I happen to own both a Bifrost and Asgard 2 and have not had any issues with either and that stack sounds good. I also have gear from RME, SMSL, iFi, and a couple of tube amps. Out of all of them, I would recommend RME - they make very high quality, great sounding gear and their support is top rate. They aren't the cheapest, but you get what you pay for. Not many companies support products like they do. I may be lucky, but haven't had any issues with any of the DACs and amps I have bought, so perhaps I am not as jaded as others for certain brands.

 

[watchnerd]

It always strikes me as odd the love/hate feelings people have for Schiit. People here have a strong, mostly negative opinion based on the tests done on various gear and I understand some of the criticism. But go to other sites and the opinion is vastly different and people are very pleased with the gear. I won't say people have agendas, but there are certainly different things people prioritize on the various sites.

I happen to own both a Bifrost and Asgard 2 and have not had any issues with either and that stack sounds good. I also have gear from RME, SMSL, iFi, and a couple of tube amps. Out of all of them, I would recommend RME - they make very high quality, great sounding gear and their support is top rate. They aren't the cheapest, but you get what you pay for. Not many companies support products like they do. I may be lucky, but haven't had any issues with any of the DACs and amps I have bought, so perhaps I am not as jaded as others for certain brands.

My Schiit Fulla 2 is budget object at every level -- performance, quaity of workmanship, etc. I listened to it twice, I think, before sticking it in a drawer somewhere.

My Schiit Mjolnir has been fun for tube rolling, puts out gobs of power, but I wouldn't call it high end, or even very transparent. It gets hot as a mofo and has edges sharp enough to hurt you if careless. It's in my office where it serves its purpose fine. I don't hate it or love it. It's earning its keep in its role in a tertiary system.

In contrast, my RME ADI-2 Pro is part of my home mixing / recording set up because it's that good.

 

[Blake Klondike]

The nature of our hobby, for a few dollars more the optimal solution is available. But, from what I've read of the RME unit this is indeed the case here! Also the ADI-2 offers crossfeed!

What exactly is crossfeed in this context? I have a Headroom The Max headphone amp that I use with HD800s and I can't hear a difference when it is turned on.

 

[VMAT4]

What exactly is crossfeed in this context? I have a Headroom The Max headphone amp that I use with HD800s and I can't hear a difference when it is turned on.

From the ADI-2 DAC Manual:

While headphones open the sound stage and make everything easier to hear and to locate by
spreading the narrow sound field of stereo speakers to the left/right extreme, some people
would like to have a listening situation that is more comparable to a standard speaker setup.
The ADI-2 DAC includes Crossfeed to address this wish. Crossfeed reduces the artificial surround
ambience that some productions have to make them sound better on speakers, but which
sounds unnatural on a headphone.

 

[solderdude]

ADI-2 DAC via Thomann .. for sure.

Tone control is miles better than Loki, performance (measured) is miles ahead of Schiit stack, 1 box solution so does not need to match in looks and size. There is no magic stuffed inside Schiit and 'Moffat bass' does not exist except in the minds of those that test sighted and have a preference for the brand.