Schiit Audio: Marketing vs Engineering

[Don Hills]

Split from the Introductions thread:

... I'm not a great fan of Shakti Stones, clever little clocks, wooden boxes of dirt with wire terminals on the back ("grounding devices"), products manufactured by Synergistic Research (or the aptly named Schiit), or the various USB "filtering" products that non-engineers have been selling. ...

... What don't you like about Schiit Audio products? ...

1) Lots of marketing bluster without the engineering chops to back it up

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-schiit-modi-2-99.1649/

AND

2) nonsense like this

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-gadget-music-tuning-box.1980/

I was surprised to see Schiit in the list because all their marketing material that I've seen has been almost devoid of any puffery or woo, in contrast to the other companies in your list. To use your example of USB decrapifiers, the marketing material for their box (the "Wyrd") says, in part:

Improves Sound, Color Printing, Data Stability
Yes. Some listeners say Wyrd improves the sound of their system. We won't make any such claim to sonic nirvana—sorry, creating expectation bias and neuro-lingustic programming ain't something that we do. Sonic improvements are for you to decide. The rest of it—color printing and data stability—that’s like saying charging your iPhone off Wyrd makes the battery last longer. Have fun with that one.

I agree, their hardware isn't bombproof. The hardware from small companies (and sadly, some large ones) rarely is. But they are transparent about the design and debug process, which does appeal to me, being a technically minded person. I assume you've been following Jason's "blog" thread over at Head-Fi?

As for Mike's "Gadget", it falls under the same category as the Loki (A tone control / equaliser). If you like your sound the way it comes off the source, you don't buy it. I have no reason to doubt it does what he says it does. I don't see how it can be an improvement on the source(*), but I am interested in hearing it in action. Hopefully there'll be some before/after samples posted once people start getting their hands on it.

(*) Same for MQA. I'm interested in the technical details of how MQA actually works, though.

 

[Speedskater]

Schiit is very different that they are open about who they are, what they do and how they do it.
The Jason Stoddard 42 chapter blog:

Schiit Happened:
The Story of the World’s
Most Improbable Start-Up

By Jason Stoddard
Co-Founder, Schiit Audio

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...f-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/

 

[watchnerd]

I was surprised to see Schiit in the list because all their marketing material that I've seen has been almost devoid of any puffery or woo, in contrast to the other companies in your list.

I would agree with regard to their analog products (amps, preamps).

However, I think some of their statements on the superiority of R2R DACs come pretty close to crossing the line, especially when it comes to the idea that 'original samples' can be preserved at all in an era where sigma-delta ADCs in the recording process are so widely used.

Full disclosure: I have several Schiit products, not currently being used due to unpacking, reconfiguring systems.

 

[amirm]

My experience is with two of their DACs and both have been terrible with zero transparency and information from them out there that they would be so. First one was really bad as I recommended it to my son due to reputation they had, only to have him say that he was hearing his computer activity through it despite having spent $400 on it!!! And then there was the case of RCA cables they had sold him. One immediately stopped working and once I opened it, I found the most horrible soldering job with no strain relief, causing the center pin to disconnect.

I have also chased long threads on other forums where getting real information from them was hard. Recent example: their "closed form filter" and "bit perfect." I finally gave up and stopped reading the 100+ page thread.

Yes, they have positioned themselves as an outsider of high-end audio but in their unique form, they still suffer from same set of issues in that even simple measurements of the performance of products is not offered.

 

[watchnerd]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...f-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/

Jason is a brilliant marketeer. The best marketing is that which isn't perceived as marketing. The story is an entertaining read (although I haven't kept up on things since the Vidar cycle). They have crafted a unique brand persona in the audio space.

But that narrative doesn't explain away @amirm 's test results.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Jason is a brilliant marketeer. The best marketing is that which isn't perceived as marketing. The story is an entertaining read (although I haven't kept up on things since the Vidar cycle). They have crafted a unique brand persona in the audio space.

But that narrative doesn't explain away @amirm 's test results.

Yes, those test results are telling. He is marketing slyly by not marketing. You'll find comments here and there about their DACs letting computer noise thru the USB. Heck even the motherboard built in sound on my last desktop doesn't do that anymore. They may finally be fixing this. True to the marketing meme, they are not saying they are fixing a deficiency. They are putting in Gen 2 improved USB boards. On the one hand, this may be one case where the USB improvements really do improve the sound of the DAC. On the other hand, lots of their customers should have bought a Berhinger.

So many of the Schiit products have some glitch. Poor USB isolation. No remote, and really how can a modern company not understand the customers want a remote on all, but the lowest end of their product range? We have the infamous glitch in the Yggy. Now supposedly fixed some months ago without them saying they fixed it. My guess being they didn't want it public because they didn't want all they had sold to turn up next week for the fix. Finally they let the word out and tried to spin it like that was some sort of benefit the odd way they handled it vs a big company. The amp that had the odd variable bias algorithm that let distortion grow over time which made it untestable. They sent it to JA knowing what would happen, and didn't say a thing about it. I believe that was a case of expecting a little controversy would be good. You know, there is no bad PR if they spell your name correctly. Making their amp a topic of discussion was like free unpaid advertising on forums. The Vidar amps that shut down if used with the wrong speaker cable. Again, their story has been crafted so even a faulty product turns into free PR, additional discussion, and they agree to fix it. There is the ADC unit which is rather deficient and hair shirt in things it lacks should you want to use it for the intended purpose of needle dropping LPs.

So for me, I simply don't like the way they do business. I don't like their lack of thorough engineering. I would not suggest them to anyone. Further they are primarily a DAC company at a time when DACs are a solved problem. There is no special DAC sound. If your DAC has a sound you didn't build it right.

 

[watchnerd]

There is no special DAC sound. If your DAC has a sound you didn't build it right.

Uh oh, those are fighting words...

 

[watchnerd]

The Vidar amps that shut down if used with the wrong speaker cable.

Oh, jeeze, I hadn't even heard about this.

I don't know why they made Vidar a class A/B amp, jammed into a small box with all the problems that entails, instead of going Class D, except for the fact that they have trashed Class D before and would have to walk it back (or the profit margins wouldn't be good enough if using someone else's amp chips).

Schiit sometimes seems to follow the "go ugly early" mantra of the startup tech industry, of course the problem is that it's a lot more difficult to "patch" hardware.

 

[RayDunzl]

If your DAC has a sound you didn't build it right.

My Audio buddy has a year of The Absolute Sound (hard copy) somehow.

He was looking at the "Recommended Components" (or whatever it is called there) and found the Benchmark DAC2.

He said it had a description of the device, but unlike everything else, no description of "sound".

I'll get him to bring it by and see for sure.

 

[watchnerd]

The Vidar amps that shut down if used with the wrong speaker cable. Again, their story has been crafted so even a faulty product turns into free PR, additional discussion, and they agree to fix it.

Quote from Chris at CA:

"Question: Anyone have a clue why the 3rd pair of cables solved my issue? Jason said the Vidars are great at finding system issues."

Great at finding system issues....that's some Jedi level spin there.

 

[watchnerd]

The Vidar amps that shut down if used with the wrong speaker cable.

Here is a summation of results from Chris at CA:

"Didn't work with Vidar and Focal Sopra N°1

Wire World Platinum Eclipse 7 (8 feet)
Kimber Monocle X (8 feet) (note: The amps didn't shut down with this cable, but they produced the very audible distortion that is heard with the other cables before the amps shut down while using those cables. Thus, still not functional with this cable)
AudioQuest Redwood (bi-wire) (8 feet)



Worked with with Vidar and Focal Sopra N°1
Monster Cable Z2 (Z Series) (15 feet)"

Source: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/34722-more-disruptive-schiit-vidar/?page=11

That's a pretty bad win/loss record.

 

[Dialectic]

Split from the Introductions thread:

I was surprised to see Schiit in the list because all their marketing material that I've seen has been almost devoid of any puffery or woo, in contrast to the other companies in your list.

There's a certain boldness in Schiit's advertising that is totally unsupported by either facts or Schiit's engineering. For instance, on the Yggdrasil page, they say:

When doctors are trying to diagnose whether you have gas or cancer from MRI results, or when the military is trying to ensure a missile hits an ammo dump and not a nunnery next door, they don’t use “24 bit” or “32 bit” delta-sigma D/A converters. Instead, they rely on precision, multibit ladder DACs, like the Analog Devices AD5791. This allows them the bit-perfect precision they need for critical applications, rather than the guesswork of a delta-sigma. We chose this same critical technology for Yggdrasil. Following these unique D/A converters are sophisticated discrete JFET buffers and summers.​

They're implicitly trashing the dozens of companies that make excellent delta-sigma converters. Further, it's very unlikely that any of the purported audio luminaries who work at Schiit know which DAC chip, if any, is used in a missile guidance system. In fact, knowing a very small amount from my engineer friends about how such systems work, I'd guess that they have ADCs but not DACs. And why would an MRI machine use a DAC other than to show the test images on a monitor? The analogies employed in this marketing blurb seem nonsensical.

As Amir can attest, no one who works at Schiit knows how to engineer a basic outboard USB converter. I concede the point that Schiit's products are cheaper than what most high-end audio companies are selling. Some of those companies, however, have real engineering chops, and others (e.g., Audio Note UK, 47Lab, and Zanden) are selling idiosyncratic products for people who, indifferent to engineering, just want weird stuff. I do not object to wanting weird stuff.

Schiit is not in the weird stuff business. It clearly is trying to market to customers who desire good engineering in the audio gear they buy. But, when there are smartphones with better audio quality than what a "high-end" audio company is selling for more than the cost of a smartphone (more than double the cost of a smartphone in some cases), the company deserves ridicule, and its products should be recognized for what they are: Schiit.

P.S. Amir - after your son heard the CPU through the DAC, I hope you gave him the $400 for the DAC plus whatever the poor-quality RCA cables cost, unless he was able to get a refund of course.

P.P.S. I don't care that Schiit products are made in the U.S.A. Quality control at Schiit is, by all accounts, suspect. I'd rather have something made in "Behringer City."

 

[RayDunzl]

I'd rather have something made in "Behringer City."

I bought a DEQ2496. It wouldn't save settings. Found the big old-style ROM chip had legs bent under and not going in the holes in the socket.

My buddy liked my DEQ2496, and bought one. His would randomly freeze/restart. I told him what to look for. He fixed it.

Both have been fine since (years). Not sure what the moral of this story is.

 

[watchnerd]

They're implicitly trashing the dozens of companies that make excellent delta-sigma converters.

Well, yes. They're not shy about that.

Start at 1:03 until about 2:16 or so.

 

[amirm]

P.S. Amir - after your son heard the CPU through the DAC, I hope you gave him the $400 for the DAC plus whatever the poor-quality RCA cables cost, unless he was able to get a refund of course.

He sent them back to them just in time for the 30-day return period to be over.

 

[Palladium]

They are like the small-time scammers who feel justified in what they do because they don't swindle as much as the big guys.

 

[watchnerd]

Schiit Yggdrasil ($2299):

versus

Benchmark DAC-3 HGC ($2195):

The Benchmark uses a delta-sigma ES9028PRO. Schiit uses a multi-bit Analog Devices AD5791BRUZ, combined with a closed-form digital filter, which Schiit claims "it retains all the original samples, performing a true interpolation".

So the "true interpolation" produces a jagged waveform with zero-crossing errors and the "the guesswork of a delta-sigma" produces a smoother waveform?

I'll give them points for being unique and attempting innovation, but there isn't much point to being unique and innovative if the results are worse.

 

[Don Hills]

The Yggdrasil glitch was fixed some time ago with a firmware update.

 

[watchnerd]

The Yggdrasil glitch was fixed some time ago with a firmware update.

That's good. Shame it took a Stereophile review to find it in the first place, though.

 

[Don Hills]

According to the designer, he knew it was there from the beginning, he just thought that a -120dB artifact wasn't likely to be audible. When it all blew up, he released a firmware change. (Added an offset in the digital filter.) If he'd done what most designers of multibit DACs do in that situation (add dither to mask it) no-one would have noticed in the first place.