Sanity check needed on amp recommendations + Philharmonic BMR

[WcfTn]

Hello - as they say, long time reader, first time poster here. I could sure use a sanity check from what may be the insanity of Reddit.

I recently purchased a pair of Philharmonic BMRs which I’m very happy with. In my excitement posted a shot of my setup to Reddit, and quickly gathered lots of comments effectively telling me I’m a chump for driving them with a Yamaha A-S501. In no uncertain terms several commenters spoke to how much better more expensive dedicated amps sound and expand the soundstage, etc. My initial response to that was that it’s mostly nonsense after what I’ve read here. Then I started second guessing and reading about all of the HypeX, Purifi and Benchmark products that were being recommended as leagues better than my Yamaha.

I even asked one of the commenters if they could point me to some objective evidence that a “better” amp will expand the sound stand and presentation, and they could not. It was basically “source: trust me bro.”

I totally appreciate that some amps have more power at specific impedances which can be needed in certain situations, but is there any reality to the idea that getting a more expensive (or not in the case of Fosi V3 Mono) dedicated amp will actually make my speakers SOUND better?

 

[staticV3]

is there any reality to the idea that getting a more expensive (or not in the case of Fosi V3 Mono) dedicated amp will actually make my speakers SOUND better?

No.

The most effective way to improve sound quality is to buy a measurement microphone and a way to add PEQ to your system (e.g. WiiM Mini/Pro).

Welcome to ASR!

 

[DVDdoug]

I didn't find a power rating for Philharmonic speakers... But if it goes as loud as you want without (audible) distortion, and as you don't have too much power and burning-out your speakers, you're OK.

But is there any reality to the idea that getting a more expensive (or not in the case of Fosi V3 Mono) dedicated amp will actually make my speakers SOUND better?

No... Probably... With electronics, there are 3 REAL characteristics that define "sound quality", Noise, distortion, and frequency response. (See Audiophoolery) Frequency response is almost always flat across the audio range, distortion is almost always better than human hearing unless you over-drive the amp into clipping/distortion. Sometimes there is audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Noise is tricky because there's more than one way to measure it, and audibility depends on how close you are to the speakers, the sensitivity of your speakers, and other ambient noise in the room. And the noise sometimes comes-in before the amplifier, especially if you are playing vinyl records, etc.

Of course, it's possible to have other gross defects like on channel being louder than the other, etc.

HypeX, Purifi and Benchmark products that were being recommended as leagues better than my Yamaha.

Those are power amps. Your Yamaha is an integrated amp which includes the functions of a preamp (multiple inputs, tone controls, etc.).

I even asked one of the commenters if they could point me to some objective evidence that a “better” amp will expand the sound stand and presentation, and they could not. It was basically “source: trust me bro.”

As you may know, this is one of the few rational-scientific audio-related resources. There's no logical reason for an amplifier to affect soundstage (unless one side is louder than the other or something like that).


Drifting off-topic... I've never heard realistic good soundstage illusion with headphones but I read a LOT about it, so it surprised me to learn that most people perceive headphone sound as coming from inside their head! Headphone Soundstage Survey

 

[Mort]

The BMR does require some power, especially with bass heavy music. Fantastic speaker.

 

[SSS]

I estimate that a different amplifier will not really enhance the sound quality. The speakers seem not current hungry with 6 Ohm (the taller BMR) or the smaller with 4 Ohm and not big woofer. OK, there are amplifiers which have little bit less distortion figures than the Yamaha. But this is on my opinion not perceivable. Even Bob Cordell states that such a difference is not hearable, it is just to verify by measurement the amp is OK. I still use Yamaha amplifiers from the 1980ies with for me very good performance with my large speakers. Yamaha has always produced good equipment, also in the pro area. If you are OK with the current setup just leave it as it is.

 

[WcfTn]

Maybe I’m revealing my biases, but this is all very reassuring. Thank you.

In regards to room corrections - I have been using the automated WiiM room correction tool using a new iPad as the microphone source. Not ideal, but doesn’t seem too bad. I had considered the idea of a MiniDSP flex + amp, but that would require purchasing the MiniDSP as well as a power amp and ditching the Yamaha. I’m wondering if a calibrated mic, REW, and manually inputting the EQ into WiiM would be just as effective for my relatively simple 2.1 setup? Would adding active crossover from a MiniDSP be enough of a step up to require purchasing entirely different gear?

 

[staticV3]

I’m wondering if a calibrated mic, REW, and manually inputting the EQ into WiiM would be just as effective for my relatively simple 2.1 setup?

An improvement over the WiiM automatic room correction, but more is possible using the miniDSP Flex (e.g. Dirac Live, FIR correction).

That being said, I'd be perfectly content with the WiiM's PEQ.

 

[WcfTn]

An improvement over the WiiM automatic room correction, but more is possible using the miniDSP Flex (e.g. Dirac Live, FIR correction).

That being said, I'd be perfectly content with the WiiM's PEQ.

There’s no great way to implement MiniDSP into my Yamaha since it doesn’t have any way to bypass the preamp section, right?

 

[JeremyFife]

Awesome speakers, congratulations!

I'll just say the same as above - if your sound goes loud enough with no unwanted noise or distortion then you are good. The Yamaha is a cracking amp.

No need to leap into a minDSP, but a calibrated mic (umic?) will work with WiiM and is a good idea - WiiM's automated room correction can use external mics, with calibration files, now. You can also check and adjust the EQ using REW.

What WiiM do you have? The Ultra has pretty good subwoofer integration if you desperately wanted to spend money, but they are all first class streamers.

Perhaps get a microphone, definitely relax and enjoy the music

 

[WcfTn]

Awesome speakers, congratulations!

I'll just say the same as above - if your sound goes loud enough with no unwanted noise or distortion then you are good. The Yamaha is a cracking amp.

No need to leap into a minDSP, but a calibrated mic (umic?) will work with WiiM and is a good idea - WiiM's automated room correction can use external mics, with calibration files, now. You can also check and adjust the EQ using REW.

What WiiM do you have? The Ultra has pretty good subwoofer integration if you desperately wanted to spend money, but they are all first class streamers.

Perhaps get a microphone, definitely relax and enjoy the music

I have a WiiM mini with the sub coming off the Yamaha sub out. I think I’m going to relish in all of the above advice and enjoy myself.

 

[amper42]

Hello - as they say, long time reader, first time poster here. I could sure use a sanity check from what may be the insanity of Reddit.

I recently purchased a pair of Philharmonic BMRs which I’m very happy with. In my excitement posted a shot of my setup to Reddit, and quickly gathered lots of comments effectively telling me I’m a chump for driving them with a Yamaha A-S501. In no uncertain terms several commenters spoke to how much better more expensive dedicated amps sound and expand the soundstage, etc. My initial response to that was that it’s mostly nonsense after what I’ve read here. Then I started second guessing and reading about all of the HypeX, Purifi and Benchmark products that were being recommended as leagues better than my Yamaha.

I even asked one of the commenters if they could point me to some objective evidence that a “better” amp will expand the sound stand and presentation, and they could not. It was basically “source: trust me bro.”

I totally appreciate that some amps have more power at specific impedances which can be needed in certain situations, but is there any reality to the idea that getting a more expensive (or not in the case of Fosi V3 Mono) dedicated amp will actually make my speakers SOUND better?

I own the BMR Monitors. They are actually pretty easy to drive to normal listening levels.
I have powered them with the following:
Denon 4500
Denon 4700
Hegel H90
Buckeye NC502MP (Hypex)
March Audio P452 (Purifi)
Boxem Arthur 4215/E2 (Purifi)

While the Hypex and Purifi options can play a bit louder the difference in sound based on the amp alone is really minimal at normal volume levels. If they sound good to you now, I wouldn't expect a big difference simply switching amps.

When I did notice a BIG difference in sound with the BMR Monitor it was while using the ADI-2 DAC FS to tune the "Loudness" control settings just the way I wanted with my favorite music. When the BMR Monitor sounded a little dull the RME Loudness control setting was able to change the sound to add amazing clarity. It was night and day difference.

The BMR Monitor has an amazing low end so you typically don't need the kind of low end EQ that many other speakers require, but the RME Loudness can drastically improve the "Presence" of the sound with my BMR Monitors.

So to answer your question - it depends. If you are totally happy with the way your BMR Monitors sound then ignore everyone's advice.
But if you want the opportunity to add more control than you thought possible before, consider a Purifi amp with an RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

 

[Open Mind Audio]

Hello - as they say, long time reader, first time poster here. I could sure use a sanity check from what may be the insanity of Reddit.

I recently purchased a pair of Philharmonic BMRs which I’m very happy with. In my excitement posted a shot of my setup to Reddit, and quickly gathered lots of comments effectively telling me I’m a chump for driving them with a Yamaha A-S501. In no uncertain terms several commenters spoke to how much better more expensive dedicated amps sound and expand the soundstage, etc. My initial response to that was that it’s mostly nonsense after what I’ve read here. Then I started second guessing and reading about all of the HypeX, Purifi and Benchmark products that were being recommended as leagues better than my Yamaha.

I even asked one of the commenters if they could point me to some objective evidence that a “better” amp will expand the sound stand and presentation, and they could not. It was basically “source: trust me bro.”

I totally appreciate that some amps have more power at specific impedances which can be needed in certain situations, but is there any reality to the idea that getting a more expensive (or not in the case of Fosi V3 Mono) dedicated amp will actually make my speakers SOUND better?

The people harping on you sound a bit extreme , and as everyone here is saying, blind tests reveal few to no audible differences between most amps.

For me, there are still a couple must-haves in an amp or integrated receiver set up, in addition to good noise and THD ratings:

1. The amp should have enough headroom (excess watts, as I think of it) to work for your space and listening distance. This ensures you are not underpowering your speakers and blasting yourself with distortion during dynamic peaks. You never want to underpower your speakers, whether you have separates or a receiver. Crown audio has a great calculator to help you determine this:
https://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power

2. The amp or receiver should have a good crosstalk rating. I think it's true (not really sure) that you can achieve the lowest crosstalk with separates - but I also know that many good receivers have perfectly fine crosstalk numbers.

Assuming your Yamaha has enough power for your listening distance, I'm sure it's 100% fine.

 

[staticV3]

There’s no great way to implement MiniDSP into my Yamaha since it doesn’t have any way to bypass the preamp section, right?

You can keep using your Yamaha as long as you do:

Various sources->Flex->Yamaha->Speakers
and
Flex->Subwoofer

Then use only the Flex for volume control and source selection.

So no sources plugged into the Yamaha and no touching the Yamaha's volume control.

Basically use the Yamaha as though it was a pure Power Amp.

 

[amper42]

You can keep using your Yamaha as long as you do:

Various sources->Flex->Yamaha->Speakers
and
Flex->Subwoofer

Then use only the Flex for volume control and source selection.

So no sources plugged into the Yamaha and no touching the Yamaha's volume control.

I have the FLEX too. It doesn't offer Loudness control so it's pretty much just another DAC with EQ added. There's something about the RME ADI-2 DAC Loudness control that places it's output in an entirely different category - It's far superior to my FLEX.

 

[ryanosaur]

As a long time Philharmonic owner (since 2018), I can safely say that Dennis’ designs are not based on amp-ophile foolery. He’s even said he is Amp-agnostic when it comes to these situations.
His long standing advice has been get an Amp that can deliver plenty of clean Power for your use case and call it a day.

Personally, I’ve run them on my old SR6012, Outlaw 2200s and now Hypex NC400s. I’ve never noticed a difference in SQ.

More than anything, if you are happy, then simply sit back and enjoy the Music! If you want to chase an Amp upgrade, stick with Dennis’ advice and look for something that will deliver 200-300w of clean power (more than you will likely ever need, but enough to juice a dynamic peak on those occasions when you want it with some headroom still in reserve) and don’t look back.

Cheers!

 

[Waxx]

The Yamaha is not sota, but it's a decent amp to modern standards and it offers a lot of functionality that may be important to you. You can have a lower noise amp (like the Hypex and Purifi models) that will cost more, but even that Yamaha should drive it right enough that it won't matter that much.

Idem with the WIIM, it's a decen device (certainly for the price it costs) but not sota on room correction. A MiniDSP flex with Dirac is better, but costs a lot more. The question is, is it needed to be sota for your application (mostly not).

On many fora they hype up certain expensive amps to give you more, but in reality it's not the case, it's often worse and costs a lot more. So don't let them fool you into that. Until you see measurements of the amp, never believe that they are better than anything. If it would be the case, i'm sure the designer and company will show that with measurements, or send it to Amir to be tested. Yamaha does not do that, because their amps are based on years of experience building amps and they have a reputation to defend (so does Nad, Pioneer, Marantz and Denon). They don't need Amir's approval to sell, and the owners don't need it neighter to know they have a decent price/quality device. Most of their amps are not sota, but good enough and very reliable and functional for it's price. If you want the best from this kind of amps, go look to the more expensive Nad models that use Purifi (Eigentakt) or Hypex based amp systems. But even the cheap models of those brand are at least decent.

I got a similar older Marantz integrated, that is also not sota, but it does it's job good and gives me a lot of pleasure for more than a decade now (without any issue). In another setup i have Ncore amps, and the difference in sound between the two is much lower than most would claim. So like said, if you are happy with the sound, don't change. That Yamaha is better than most think, it's a reliable workhorse amp, nothing fancy, sota or perfect, but it does it's job like intended and it's very reliable. It's a proven mass market product, therefor it's not popular on "high end" fora as it's not elitist enough.

 

[amper42]

As a long time Philharmonic owner (since 2018), I can safely say that Dennis’ designs are not based on amp-ophile foolery. He’s even said he is Amp-agnostic when it comes to these situations.
His long standing advice has been get an Amp that can deliver plenty of clean Power for your use case and call it a day.

Personally, I’ve run them on my old SR6012, Outlaw 2200s and now Hypex NC400s. I’ve never noticed a difference in SQ.

More than anything, if you are happy, then simply sit back and enjoy the Music! If you want to chase an Amp upgrade, stick with Dennis’ advice and look for something that will deliver 200-300w of clean power (more than you will likely ever need, but enough to juice a dynamic peak on those occasions when you want it with some headroom still in reserve) and don’t look back.

Cheers!

My BMR Monitors reach 75dB while only using 16W with a Purifi amp. A 75dB sound level is loud enough my conversation with someone else in the room can be impaired. The fact that most of us think we need 200W boggles the mind. I typically don't like to stay in a room for long where the amp is pushing 50W.

 

[Ropeburn]

Hello - as they say, long time reader, first time poster here.

Welcome!

I recently purchased a pair of Philharmonic BMRs which I’m very happy with. In my excitement posted a shot of my setup to Reddit, and quickly gathered lots of comments effectively telling me I’m a chump for driving them with a Yamaha A-S501.

This MUST be r/audiophile, right? Definitely one of the worse cesspools of audiophoolery, and why to avoid it you have now seen. Haha

I even asked one of the commenters if they could point me to some objective evidence that a “better” amp will expand the sound stand and presentation, and they could not. It was basically “source: trust me bro.”

Of course they couldn't. That would require such objective data to exist.

In terms of Reddit, you'll be better off in r/budgetaudiophile. One of the few places with a similar no-nonsense attitude based on fact and science similar to ASR, infact ASR is well regarded there and frequently referenced when helping people with buying decisions. When you're trying to get the best performance for whatever little money you have, objective data is crucial.

Funnily enough, just yesterday there was a related post with the user wondering whether the Yamaha A-Sx01 line will turn into future classics, because they're so well made and equipped and performing for the money. I would say they will indeed.

 

[ryanosaur]

My BMR Monitors reach 75dB while only using 16W with a Purifi amp. A 75dB sound level is loud enough my conversation with someone else in the room can be impaired. The fact that most of us think we need 200W boggles the mind. I typically don't like to stay in a room for long where the amp is pushing 50W.

Agree. It’s not that we need it or will ever use it on a regular basis, as I said. Perhaps it’s more my own training and experience as a musician where a full orchestra is capable of delivering a severe and violent impact which we politely call Dynamic Peak.

I don’t like it when listening to such an orchestral recording with said dynamics is impaired by my equipment.

 

[Ropeburn]

My BMR Monitors reach 75dB while only using 16W with a Purifi amp. A 75dB sound level is loud enough my conversation with someone else in the room can be impaired. The fact that most of us think we need 200W boggles the mind. I typically don't like to stay in a room for long where the amp is pushing 50W.

How much of those 16W is idle consumption? 99.9%?

I have the same behaviour here. 17W idle, and at moderate volumes it's still 17W. Small wonder. If 1-2W actual power into the speakers gets you 91dB (here) or even just, say, 80 with really inefficient speakers, thats a whole lot of volume. You only ever need more when you're having a REAL blast - in return, then it escalates quickly because of the exponential relations between volume, distance, and power.