I'd still check level matching for such a comparison as well as that it is the same master if just doing it by ear, even using the same player and toggling (if possible) between the two formats with the same disc....is someone else doing the switching at least?
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SACD Players in 2025?
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For that kind of comparisons, the early RCA Living Stereo album reissued on SACDs can be used, because the staff members that were involved in the project explained that the original master tapes were digitized and mastered in DSD and that the CD layers of those SACDs were derived from computer-generated PCM from the DSD masters (see here and here).
Moreover, also out of print for ages, this SACDs remain readily procurable for relatively little money, which allow one to buy two of the same reissue to read the SACD layer on one disc player and the CD layer on another identical player (or a different type of player known to produce identical sound than the SACD player playing CDs) and switch between the two.
The PCM masters obtained from the DSD remasters were also re-released on CD only in a 60 discs box set.
Moreover, every hybrid SACD releases that bear the "Sony SBM (Super Bit Mapping) Direct" logo can be used confidently also, because SBM Direct is the Sony's designed real-time hardware decimating filter that was used to get 16 bits/44.1 kHz PCM masters from DSD masters.
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With real-time hardware decimating filters such as Sony's Super Bit Mapping Direct, designed at a time when computers were much less powerful than nowadays, as explained by James A. Moorer in this article (page 15):
JaccoW
Senior Member
I picked up a vintage Sony DVP-NS905V QS CD/DVD/SACD/etc. player a few weeks ago. And while it still has a working laser that effortlessly switches between Redbook and Scarlet Book SACD... the internal DAC sounds like crap. 
The regular CD with an external DAC however still sounds great. I guess I will play around with it the next few weeks and maybe double check the internals.
The regular CD with an external DAC however still sounds great. I guess I will play around with it the next few weeks and maybe double check the internals.
What sacd/cd players that have bit perfect output would "sound" different?
I'm afraid I do not understand your question in the context of the post you quoted!? I merely suggested some materials that are adequate to conduct the experiment you had commented above in post #181.
I don't understand the exercise much to begin with
There would still need to be a means to defeat DRM is my guess.
I don't understand. Either it has the keys & protocol to unlock DRM to get digital data from the SACD layer, or it doesn't....
HDMI can transmit DSD since revision 1.2 from 2005. Hence, once an HDMI receiver gets DSD from whatever source device, DSD can be delivered as is to another circuit. From the HDMI receiver output, it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to choose how unencrypted DSD signals are used.
As far as copy protection is concerned, all SACD players incorporate a decoding chip, by definition (otherwise, they would not be able to play SACDs). These decoding chips output raw, unencrypted, DSD. HDMI transceiver and receiver chips encrypt DSD only between them for the purpose of interfacing HDMI devices. But the output of any HDMI receiver is raw, unencrypted DSD, just as the output of any SACD decoding chip. The manufacturer can make whatever he wants with this DSD signal. Lawfully, the SACD specifications (the Scarlet Book) prohibit to output raw DSD, but manufacturers can only be bound by legal action if they choose not to comply to this rule. It seems some manufacturers are no longer fearful of the wrath of Philips, the owner of the intellectual property rights to the Scarlet Book, since they have already produced disc players that output DSD through an I2S interface...
As far as copy protection is concerned, all SACD players incorporate a decoding chip, by definition (otherwise, they would not be able to play SACDs
). These decoding chips output raw, unencrypted, DSD. HDMI transceiver and receiver chips encrypt DSD only between them for the purpose of interfacing HDMI devices. But the output of any HDMI receiver is raw, unencrypted DSD, just as the output of any SACD decoding chip. The manufacturer can make whatever he wants with this DSD signal. Lawfully, the SACD specifications (the Scarlet Book) prohibit to output raw DSD, but manufacturers can only be bound by legal action if they choose not to comply to this rule. It seems some manufacturers are no longer fearful of the wrath of Philips, the owner of the intellectual property rights to the Scarlet Book, since they have already produced disc players that output DSD through an I2S interface...
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Roland68
Master Contributor
However, this has been old news for a few years now.
Circuit boards are available for certain Oppo players that extract the DSD signal from the internal HDMI stream.
Such boards are also available as universal units designed to extract the PCM or DSD signal from an external HDMI source and output it at full resolution via I2S or S/PDIF.
Furthermore, the security measures designed to prevent SACD ripping have been practically obsolete for several years.
Due to a security vulnerability, it is possible—using specific Sony PlayStation consoles, 13 Sony Blu-ray players, and over 15 other Blu-ray player models—to rip any SACD directly to a USB drive or over a network.
Roland68
Master Contributor
That may be the case for you.
As I said, with the OppoMod board, outputting the SACD's DSD signal at full resolution via the I2S interface (over LVDS) has been possible for a few years now—since at least 2019.
There are also a few SACD transports that do exactly this out of the box—all via I2S—though they fall into a higher price range. The PS Audio model has been available since early 2021, the Onix for a year, and the YBA Design YT302, to name just a few.
But as I mentioned, this has actually been possible for at least 6–7 years using any SACD-capable Blu-ray player with an HDMI output.
All you need for that is an "HDMI I2S extractor." And there are quite a few options available. You can set this up for well under €100 using a used player.
And it’s not anyone’s fault if you weren't aware of this, given that there have been various threads on the subject in this forum for at least 6–7 years. The topic of ripping SACDs using Sony Blu-ray players and PlayStations is also well-known and dates back eight years.
Aha, so you are saying that there are now some (possibly Chinese) extractors that include DRM keys to get DSD from any player.
I haven't been following anything on SACD - I can't see the point of SACD - for me at least- and extractors, hacked f/w, hardware add-on etc seem a lot of faffing to steal a bit of music!
I haven't been following anything on SACD - I can't see the point of SACD - for me at least- and extractors, hacked f/w, hardware add-on etc seem a lot of faffing to steal a bit of music!
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Roland68
Master Contributor
If you're talking about stealing, you can only be projecting your own behavior.
I own the original of every SACD I play—no matter how I play it—just as I do with CDs.
So please, spare me those kinds of insinuations.
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