SACD options?

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Are you within the return window for the Panasonic player? I would just replace both disk players with one that reads everything if possible. Sony is the best priced option (and what I use). Pioneer has an expensive option. Both are cluttered with “apps” - personally I’d prefer a disk player for disks and leave the streaming stuff to AppleTV - but I can’t compare UI because I’ve never used the Pioneer.

Hmm...maybe (it's about five weeks). I looked for Ultra HD BD disc that would also play SACDs and found very few. Sony was one choice, but I've avoided Sony gear for several decades on principle. I like the Panasonic player, but was intending to keep the DV139 just for SACDs, Now I'm having to re-think that.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Hard to know where to start. I looked a the Arcam DV139 manual, which is not super informative, but there do appear to be a bunch of output settings (e.g. speaker size, delay, crossover...) that hopefully do not apply to SACD (DSD-->PCM here) via HDMI, but they should all be set to off/bypass just in case -- anything suggesting DSP should be set to off -- and all such settings should be applied in the AVR instead. (But who knows...if that *doesn;t* work, try using the DV139 speaker config menu to match your setup)

You also have to make sure you are accessing the multichannel layer of the SACD -- you can set it to be the default layer in the DV139.

Also according to some threads, firmware should be v5.06 in order to get 'full functionality' of HDMI 1080p with this player.

Your surrounds should not necessarily be 'quiet' -- surround mixes can and often do contain surround content that is as loud as front channel content.

What specific SQ releases are you comparing to what SACD releases? How are you playing the two of them? SACD is discrete, SQ not. The mixes are going to sound different for at least that reason, even if the SACD is sourced from the same quad master as the SQ.
What are the settings in the Anthem for each type of input? Are you hearing the same thing with DVDA surround releases?

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Yes, I always do as much as I can in the receiver rather than the player, so the delays and trims are all zero in the DV139, and SACD has priority. My surround speakers are set as "present", so perhaps I should turn them off?

Interesting thread on the DV139...the manual says that the player will not pass audio over HDMI if the video resolution is set to 1080p, so I have set it to 720p instead. I've never done a firmware update. Is this done by downloading a file to a PC connected via RS-232 to the player? The "Support" link on Arcam's website appears to link erroneously to a "Buy" function instead (sigh).

So far, I've used just one of my usual test tracks - "Lady be Good" from Jazz in the Pawn Shop. The CD layers sounds excellent when streamed from my PC via a Squeezebox into the Anthem, and also when played on the Panasonic BD player. I don't have any DVD-A discs.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I assume that amongst the tests is a sequence specifically for identifying the 6 individual signals within a 5.1 stream?

Yes, I believe the test tones cycle through one speaker at a time.

 

[krabapple]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Yes, I always do as much as I can in the receiver rather than the player, so the delays and trims are all zero in the DV139, and SACD has priority. My surround speakers are set as "present", so perhaps I should turn them off?

Interesting thread on the DV139...the manual says that the player will not pass audio over HDMI if the video resolution is set to 1080p, so I have set it to 720p instead. I've never done a firmware update. Is this done by downloading a file to a PC connected via RS-232 to the player? The "Support" link on Arcam's website appears to link erroneously to a "Buy" function instead (sigh).

So far, I've used just one of my usual test tracks - "Lady be Good" from Jazz in the Pawn Shop. The CD layers sounds excellent when streamed from my PC via a Squeezebox into the Anthem, and also when played on the Panasonic BD player. I don't have any DVD-A discs.

Firmware can often be loaded from the internet if there's an ethernet or WiFi connection. For this old unit though.... does the manual say anything?

Are you accessing the multichannel layer of the SACD at all? Results from the CD layer aren't really relevant.

I assume that amongst the tests is a sequence specifically for identifying the 6 individual signals within a 5.1 stream?

If it's the Stay In Tune With Pentatone disc, there is such a sequence. Pink noise from each 5.1 channel separately. I suggest the OP run this test ASAP. Something sounds very off with the setup or processing.

 

[linuxfan]

no licensed SACD player was allowed to output DSD

As I understand it, that's incorrect. Sony does, indeed, place licensing restrictions on how SACD's can be accessed, but they will license a device to send/receive raw DSD data (from SACD) over the HDMI connection - provided the vendors of such devices adhere to strict HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) encoding standards. This connection is then "DSD-over-HDMI" enabled.
One such licensed player is Oppo.

Regarding DSD-enabled receivers, the list provided by Archsam in the 11th post is a good reference.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Firmware can often be loaded from the internet if there's an ethernet or WiFi connection. For this old unit though.... does the manual say anything?

I found a third-party download site for Arcam firmware. The release notes don't indicate anything relevant in version 5.06, but there was a comment that some users have had problems with that version and have reverted to their original version. I don't think this is going to be near the top of my list!

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

It's a long list and must have been a lot of work, but it's ten years old now and I doubt whether most of the receivers will be still be relevant in terms of HT audio processing.

 

[Pluto]

[Sony] will license a device to send/receive raw DSD data (from SACD) over the HDMI connection - provided the vendors of such devices adhere to strict HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) encoding standards

Encrypted DSD via HDCP HDMI.

Talk about a calamity waiting to happen! WTF is anyone going to do with even unencrypted DSD, apart from put it directly into a D2A converter? DSD is well nigh un-manipulable in the real world so insisting in wrapping it in that level of protection is totally wrong-headed. It's that kind of thinking by Sony that effectively killed SACD as a viable entity.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I've spent a lot more time checking and double-checking the settings on the DV139 and the MRX520. I've also run all the test tones, re-adjusted the settings, and done a few quick listening tests. In short, all the speakers are working as they should - in sequence and in phase - although there was about a 3dB spread between the loudest (FR) and quietest (LS). The audible difference when playing an SACD is considerably more than 3dB, so I still think there's something amiss, although I can't explain why that's not evident in the test tone experiment. Oh, and the DV139 misses the first few notes of the first track of an SACD, so perhaps there's a processing delay going on.

It has occurred to me that this is not a proper audio or HT environment...it's just our living room. This means that the speakers are not optimally positioned for any kind of multi-channel audio, but are placed where my wife will tolerate them. Similarly, the listening position is driven by where she wants the furniture. So the situation is far from ideal, but it still doesn't fully explain the problem. Nonetheless, I think I can live with the SACD performance. I'll do some further experimentation and might simply crank up the surround speakers a bit. It will be interesting to see what Anthem's room correction software does when my order eventually arrives.

I haven't played an ordinary CD in years, but my wife still likes them. I have lots of options for playing these: the DV139 over S/PDIF, the DV139 over RCA, the Panasonic over HDMI, the Panasonic over TOSLINK. . . I might do a little curiosity-driven experimentation while I'm waiting.

Thanks to everyone for spending your time on this and for giving me lots to think about. I much appreciate it!

OHFG

 

[Pluto]

The audible difference when playing an SACD is considerably more than 3dB, so I still think there's something amiss,

I wouldn't be convinced that anything is amiss but rather, that's the way it is. One of the driving ideas behind SACD was that it did not need to get involved in the so-called loudness wars and in this respect it was largely successful but for reasons that are possibly more intriguing than you might imagine.

Surprisingly, for a digital format, the actual permitted maximum level is defined in a somewhat woolly manner based not on the reasonably simplistic number system that governs the maximum level of PCM, but on the number of consecutive ones or zeros that manifest themselves within the data stream, this being related to the physical limitations imposed by the optics of the disc. On account of the above as well as being marketed as a "high quality", specialist format and therefore, to some extent, immune from the political pressures of the loudness war, SACD tends to be mastered with considerably more headroom than its Red Book counterpart. This, in turn, leaves the problem of a significant discrepancy in level between the Red Book and DSD layers of an SACD. “Everybody knows” that louder sounds better so this leaves the manufacturer in a dilemma. Some manufacturers add an arbitrary few dB gain to their analogue output when playing the DSD but this is not necessarily a good general solution.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

[QUOTE="Pluto, post: 426022, member: 3279" SACD tends to be mastered with considerably more headroom than its Red Book counterpart. This, in turn, leaves the problem of a significant discrepancy in level between the Red Book and DSD layers of an SACD. [/QUOTE]

Good point. I mentioned this (SACDs are quieter) to my wife when I was borrowing her ears yesterday (her hearing is better than mine). Furthermore, CD playback must get a further boost simply because, for a given overall perceived loudness, all the sound is coming from just two channels directly in front of you. The surrounds are just adding ambience on some SACDs, so I suppose the differences will vary significantly from one recording to the next.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[krabapple]

Encrypted DSD via HDCP HDMI.

Talk about a calamity waiting to happen! WTF is anyone going to do with even unencrypted DSD, apart from put it directly into a D2A converter? DSD is well nigh un-manipulable in the real world so insisting in wrapping it in that level of protection is totally wrong-headed. It's that kind of thinking by Sony that effectively killed SACD as a viable entity.

As SACDs have been readily 'rippable' for a couple of years now (if you have the right hardware), I would say that the good ship 'UnManipulable' has sailed...and sunk.

(Also ,the Miles Davis SACD I bought last month seems pretty viable ;>)

 

[krabapple]

As I understand it, that's incorrect. Sony does, indeed, place licensing restrictions on how SACD's can be accessed, but they will license a device to send/receive raw DSD data (from SACD) over the HDMI connection - provided the vendors of such devices adhere to strict HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) encoding standards. This connection is then "DSD-over-HDMI" enabled.
One such licensed player is Oppo.

Regarding DSD-enabled receivers, the list provided by Archsam in the 11th post is a good reference.

IIRC Denon (with denonlink) and Pioneer (with ilink) were also licensed to pass DSD digitally...though I don't recall if PCM conversion was always involved (it would have to be when the receiving AVR did not have a DSD decoder). It's ancient history now.

 

[krabapple]

I wouldn't be convinced that anything is amiss but rather, that's the way it is. One of the driving ideas behind SACD was that it did not need to get involved in the so-called loudness wars and in this respect it was largely successful but for reasons that are possibly more intriguing than you might imagine.

There shouldn't be a 3dB diff between *channels* when playing the Pentatone SACD 5.1 channel test signals. That's what OHFG reported, if I am reading him correctly.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

There shouldn't be a 3dB diff between *channels* when playing the Pentatone SACD 5.1 channel test signals. That's what OHFG reported, if I am reading him correctly.

...as measured from the listening position with all trim levels set to zero. As I mentioned, the listening environment has a number of compromises!

 

[DonH56]

As SACDs have been readily 'rippable' for a couple of years now (if you have the right hardware), I would say that the good ship 'UnManipulable' has sailed...and sunk.

(Also ,the Miles Davis SACD I bought last month seems pretty viable ;>)

Ripping is not manipulating... Most DAWs do not support direct manipulation of DSD files. You convert to PCM, manipulate, then convert back to DSD. Maybe we have differing definitions.

 

[Pluto]

SACDs have been readily 'rippable' for a couple of years now (if you have the right hardware)

I actually said…

DSD is well nigh un-manipulable in the real world

NOT

SACD is well nigh un-manipulable in the real world

Note the difference. DSD is, for all intents and purposes, un-manipulable without certain highly specialized hardware.

And your…

…a couple of years now (if you have the right hardware)

Is closer to 10 years than 2! Mr Wicked's original project dates from 2011 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[krabapple]

Ripping is not manipulating... Most DAWs do not support direct manipulation of DSD files. You convert to PCM, manipulate, then convert back to DSD. Maybe we have differing definitions.

To both who replied: I interpreted 'manipulating' as including being able to access the DSD stream from an SACD, and save it in various formats (including dff and dsf a well as converted to PCM) for duplication or playback, which is the very thing the powers that be were trying so hard to prevent happening with all those layers of protection. I'm aware that editing/production in DSD is basically impossible for consumers (and basically involves converting DSD to DSD-wide aka 'PCM narrow' even in pro DSD workstations..or at least it used to when I cared).

 

[krabapple]

...as measured from the listening position with all trim levels set to zero. As I mentioned, the listening environment has a number of compromises!

I'm not getting why you'd reference the unadjusted level difference between speakers at the LP...such differences occur to some degree in virtually every surround setup (and get fixed with modern AVR level and delay matching) and they would not be the cause of what you're hearing specifically from SACDs. You;ve said you have no DVDAs, but do DTS and Dolby surround materials programs right?

 

[WHQL]

I've spent a lot more time checking and double-checking the settings on the DV139 and the MRX520. I've also run all the test tones, re-adjusted the settings, and done a few quick listening tests. In short, all the speakers are working as they should - in sequence and in phase - although there was about a 3dB spread between the loudest (FR) and quietest (LS). The audible difference when playing an SACD is considerably more than 3dB, so I still think there's something amiss, although I can't explain why that's not evident in the test tone experiment. Oh, and the DV139 misses the first few notes of the first track of an SACD, so perhaps there's a processing delay going on.

It has occurred to me that this is not a proper audio or HT environment...it's just our living room. This means that the speakers are not optimally positioned for any kind of multi-channel audio, but are placed where my wife will tolerate them. Similarly, the listening position is driven by where she wants the furniture. So the situation is far from ideal, but it still doesn't fully explain the problem. Nonetheless, I think I can live with the SACD performance. I'll do some further experimentation and might simply crank up the surround speakers a bit. It will be interesting to see what Anthem's room correction software does when my order eventually arrives.

I haven't played an ordinary CD in years, but my wife still likes them. I have lots of options for playing these: the DV139 over S/PDIF, the DV139 over RCA, the Panasonic over HDMI, the Panasonic over TOSLINK. . . I might do a little curiosity-driven experimentation while I'm waiting.

Thanks to everyone for spending your time on this and for giving me lots to think about. I much appreciate it!

OHFG

As a final step, I would run Anthem Room Correction. I think you will see a noticeable improvement in MCH sound. Especially if as you say the speakers are not optimally positioned. It should balance out the surround volumes. Plus, you can practice runnning Anthem and tuning MCH speaker setup on the loaner before your new unit arrives! Good luck!