Shame they exited the market but optical discs were cooled off a lot by streaming and their phone business was more lucrative....I ordered my 203 on the day they announced the closing down of production, had held out up til then. Nice capable player for sure and has more output options than the Sony's do (a couple 5100s, and a 6700).
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
SACD - Imported HDMI DAC RH-899X PCM or DIY DSD Board solution
You are correct - my apologies. I have been a bit confused about "ARC" versus "non-ARC" but I just did some Googling now.
OK, in my post #4 ignore 2b) - that's wrong.
But 2a) is still correct - all you should need is a standard HDMI extractor, then feed its coaxial S/PDIF output to a DAC - the entry-level champion is presently the SMSL PS200 PRO.
I think the information you have been told relates to accessing DSD-over-HDMI, not PCM. Yes, if you try to send DSD-over-HDMI to a non-Sony authorised HDMI device (such as a standard HDMI extractor) the SACD player will refuse to do so, and revert to PCM - I'm not sure if that will be PCM transcoded from the SACD layer, or simply the standard CD layer.
The core issue is that Sony considers their precious DSD format to be highly valuable, and they place tight restrictions on how it can be accessed.
But if you configure your SACD player to output PCM, I don't believe Sony has any problem with this. Having said that, the actual PCM sample rate of the transcoded DSD is vendor-set - my Pioneer BDP-150 outputs PCM at 96kHz, both via HDMI and coaxial S/PDIF - but maybe Sony has set yours at 44.1kHz?
As we explore this issue it makes me realise that if all you want is PCM, just get it from the S/PDIF output of your SACD player - there's no need to access it from the HDMI output, and no need for an HDMI extractor at all!
And if your Sony's PCM output (either HDMI or S/PDIF) is fixed at 44.1kHz I would not lose sleep over this. As I mentioned earlier, you're now dealing with transcoded DSD. It will be little better at 96kHz than it will be at 44.1kHz, if at all.
In fact, if you're not accessing the original DSD data, I would not bother transcoding at all, and simply use the standard CD layer of the SACD - that can be configured in the menu.
Now let's return to the issue of true DSD playback.
Yes there's some uncertainty around this issue - I have been dealing with DSD output from an SACD player for the last 10 years or so, and I have always advised people to use the I2S output of the HDMI de-embedder, which then necessitates a more expensive DAC (or DIY DAC).
But in the last year or so several users have reported to me that this particular HDMI de-embedder definitely outputs DoP on its coaxial S/PDIF connector. I can't guarantee this, myself, but it seems to me there's only one core version of this HDMI de-embedder, even though it's sold by many different outlets, and is sometimes even rebranded.
It's your choice, but I think it's worth a gamble - connect its coaxial S/PDIF output to an SMSL PS200 PRO, and see if the "DSD" light appears. If not, you have lost 85 Euros, not 1000 Euros.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #23
You have nothing to apologise for - it is rather confusing. When you add to this, that some advertisements explicitely say list HDMI as an input, but it turns out to be ARC - its a definite tangle
I would love you to be correct on this point, but i am fairly certain this is incorrect. The HDCP handshake is necessary, or the player will default to CD quality, and this is regardless of whether the Player is set to DSD/BITSTREAM, or PCM out. This is the entire reason for there being 2 different specialized HDMI Extractors. One is DOP, while the other is PCM. (both are I2s, which is baffling)
Id say this is one of the most confusing parts of the entire process but from what i gather, the standard HDMI extractors lack the ability to handshake in a secure way even for hiRes PCM. When Sony/Philips developed SACD they went to great lengths to protect the HiRes Audio, whether its DSD or PC, as you said. We are all now paying the price for this!
With the caveat that, i do not have the system up and running, and am really at the planning stage - But In my view, this is the real problem.
There seem to be 2 SACD capable HDMI Extractors on the market:
- The first is the audiophonics style "Audio extractor HDMI / MHL to I2S / Coaxial / Optical" - the NON Dop version. It will output DSD via I2S, as it seems you have done with your setup. Which obviously requires an expensive DAC - this one can ALSO be used to port PCM out via COAX, assuming the player is outputting PCM. (I expect this is what i will do)
- The second is a nearly identical box, with a slightly DIFFERENT board. It too outputs DSD via I2S, but it also outputs DSD over PCM (DOP64) via coax.
SACD is so niche, but i expect this has been debated before. im deep down that rabbit hole now, and il keep researching. Im not in a mad rush to spend the money. I can wait until i have a working plan, and the correct idea of what i am doing
OK, you may be correct, but bear in mind we're talking about the HDMI connection here. If you use the S/PDIF connection there is no logic/handshake. The S/PDIF connection will be a fixed PCM sample rate that the vendor has programmed - my Pioneer BDP-150 definitely outputs PCM S/PDIF at 96kHz, I see this displayed on my DAC. Your Sony might be fixed at 44.1kHz(?). I maintain that if you are content with PCM output from your SACD player, don't waste any effort in trying to obtain 96kHz in preference to 44.1kHz - both are technically compromised in that they are transcodings of DSD data.
OK, good to know. I suggest, then, that you track down the correct DoP version and buy it!
Now connect it via coaxial S/PDIF to an SMSL PS200 PRO or D-6S or DO100 PRO or Topping E50 II and you will have true DSD playback.
You cannot use the Topping E30 II - it definitely does not support S/PDIF DoP.
Last edited:
"HDMI/MHL Digital Interface Audio I2S/DSD/Optical/Coaxial HDMI To I2S IIS Support Coaxial DOP Board"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353354399159
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353354399159
- Thread Starter
- #26
Thanks for the reply -
I am stunned if thats the case. Literally shocked.
To clarify; Pioneer and Sony players can output 24-bit/96kHz or 192kHz PCM over standard coaxial, but only for non-SACD sources like DVD-Audio, Blu-ray, or high-res files from a USB drive. For physical SACDs, the Sony/Philips DRM license mandates that the coaxial output is either entirely muted or strictly downsampled to 16-bit/44.1kHz. AFAIK, this licence is rock solid and built in at a hardware level.
Further clarification of my understanding, and my own experience: If i put a hybrid SACD in my player, and connect it to a DAC - it will play the CD layer at standard CD quality levels. If i insert an SACD with no CD layer (non hybrid) - nothing happens. It plays and i get no output. Which is EXACTLY what i expected to happen
Other players have a slightly different way of handling it: Leaving hybrids discs alone, so as not to cloud the issue: Some players from both Sony and Pioneer WILL PLAY true SACD viathe coax; BUT, they will detect the lack of handshake, convert to PCM, and more importantly, DOWNSAMPLE to 16-bit/44.1kHz (standard Redbook CD)
@linuxfan ; just to be clear im not getting argumentative on this topic. Im learning, with limited experience, and judging solely on what i have read.
In terms of just being happy with 16-bit/44.1kHz CD quality - theres nothing wrong with CD quality at all, i love it. My Marantz CC3000 is my most used source, and i have tonnes of CDs. I guess the entire purpose of this project is to access the higher quality levels in the SACDs that i own. I may get more, i may not! We could debate the Pros and Cons of trying to set my system up for DoP, or DSD direct, or HiRes PCM. Certainly easier to just stick with CD quality. But i suppose i made the decision a while ago to proceed down this line.
Iv had some rather odd chats with people elsewhere, with gatekeeping deployed. One person argued and became quite dismissive of the project - advising me to instead buy 'better speakers', and attacking my Vintage Wharfedales as insufficient. Ah, some people just like to criticize other i suppose. A lot of people recommended simply ripping the SACDs, for file playback.
That last one did give me pause, because i have effectively done it with the aide of a friend. And my ZD3 does play the files back beautifully, and lights up with the DSD 64 logo using Cantata on MINT. Its easier, its handier you might say, and its up and running. I have to spend nothing!
But, i have that BluRay player - you know how it is. Its there, why cant i just insert the disc and press play for hi-res audio!!!!!!
lolPS: Not gonna share links to other chats elsewhere - dont know whether its allowed or not, but regardless. Iv enjoyed reading ASR forums, and i dont wanna drag other disagreements from elsewhere on to this!
Hmm try a solution to rip your SACD's may be more flexible ? more options ? to 24/96 and be happy for SACD DSD64 24/96 will be suitable .
I do understand that there is some joy in just playing good old physical media without some app streamer or server etc . I had everything on a LMS server for 20 years now i started to use my CD's again...
A downmix from 6ch to 2ch will involve converting to PCM inside the player. You can basically not do any kind of processing on a DSD signal ? Fyi
I do understand that there is some joy in just playing good old physical media without some app streamer or server etc . I had everything on a LMS server for 20 years now i started to use my CD's again...
A downmix from 6ch to 2ch will involve converting to PCM inside the player. You can basically not do any kind of processing on a DSD signal ? Fyi
You now have me nervous that I'm not accurately recalling tests that I did a few years ago, and I can't presently re-check because I'm in the process of changing city and most of my equipment is in storage, in a different state!
I definitely recall testing with a non-hybrid SACD, and there was definitely output from coaxial S/PDIF, but I'm now wondering if I really saw 96kHz on my DAC?
There are some other potentially contributing factors:
- my Pioneer BDP-150 is a Blu-ray player which is SACD-compatible, not a dedicated SACD player.
- I have hacked region-free firmware on it.
My take home message, though, is that I think you can avoid any/all of this PCM complexity, and go with a true DSD playback configuration. The DoP-compatible HDMI extractor I listed in post #25 is a modest US$95, and the DoP-compatible DAC's I listed range in price from just US$90 to US$240.
P.S. I would never speak ill of vintage Wharfedales!
Last edited:
Yeah that's what I do. I have a Pioneer BDP-160 for just that purpose.
I see on these forums, though, that many people still prefer to play physical media.
- Thread Starter
- #30
Just to mention to anyone interested- im still toying with the DIY route.
Turns out that imported DAC board actually supports DOP64 Via Coax - it was a real task to confirm this, took a while - but suffice to say, it does.
THEREFORE: I could bypass the messy unshielded PIN OUT I2S connection - and bridge the two boards via a short run of 75OHM Coax?
On paper its dynamite - in reality, i dont know. Im still researching. Im a stickler for details but its maybe a runner? I mapped it below for anyone slightly interested
Turns out that imported DAC board actually supports DOP64 Via Coax - it was a real task to confirm this, took a while - but suffice to say, it does.
THEREFORE: I could bypass the messy unshielded PIN OUT I2S connection - and bridge the two boards via a short run of 75OHM Coax?
On paper its dynamite - in reality, i dont know. Im still researching. Im a stickler for details but its maybe a runner? I mapped it below for anyone slightly interested
Sure. It's technically correct for coaxial S/PDIF to be carried over 75 ohm cable, but in the real world a standard RCA-to-RCA audio cable will work fine, especially if it's just a short length.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #33
Yea im back down the DIY rabbit hole
- I dont know if its a waste of time.- Yes a short run wouldnt need a super hi quality/price Cable.
- Getting technical, but i could ground the DAC internally - as il still mount the two boards in a Metal Case. I would isolate the HDMI extractor by using nylon standoffs
- Oriented correctly so the necessary connections are accessable externally - the coax bridge would be EXTERNAL. which is fine.
- The jumper switches on the DAC are perfect for this task. 6 Pins 3 Combinations for I2s, Coax, And Optical - Once its set for Coax its done! The DAC will only listen for a COAX input.
- That board AUTO recognizes the signal. SO if its PCM, it decodes it and converts to analogue. DOP, same thing, converts to analogue.
Il continue looking at this as a possible alternative route.
- Thread Starter
- #34
Yea it would be tempting to try it, considering it was the original idea and i appreciate the help. No harm i suppose, but i suspect DOP64 MIGHT be the way to go - Earlier in the thread Roland, suggested and was likely correct - that the DuPont cables would be HIGHLY susceptible to interference.
Also i found this rather bizarre piece of info on the spec sheet for the Extractor board:
Never actually seen such a specific 'exclusion' - the fact they have it, and explicitly RULE OUT I2S to the Dac - and RULE IN DoP64 to the dac -
My wife will be quite annoyed, il be reading up on this for quite a while. I think its the clock, and maybe theres a solution. But with DoP Ruled in -
FYI 'B Board' is the DOP version of the extractor - 'A Board' is the other NON DOP version of the extractor
And so it continues
Roland68
Master Contributor
You’re going in circles, making decisions—or wanting to pursue paths—that run counter to your original intention.
You want to get the absolute best out of SACD, yet you plan to use the cheapest components—far removed from an optimal implementation—to achieve that?
That just doesn't add up.
Modern DACs are developed using measurement equipment costing well into the five-figure range and benefit from years of continuous refinement by their manufacturers.
It’s not the DAC chip or the op-amp that matters most, but the implementation. A well-implemented DAC chip costing less than €10, paired with op-amps costing 99 cents, can easily outperform a combination of high-end DAC chips and op-amps with a component cost of €200—provided the implementation is solid.
Just looking at that single output op-amp tells you it’s cheap junk.
How can you design an output stage using just one dual op-amp that works cleanly with a DAC chip featuring balanced outputs—a chip that requires a dual op-amp *per channel* just to handle the complex filter circuitry?
Then there’s the complete lack of jitter reduction on this DAC board, the poor/cheap crystal oscillator circuit, and the cheap, noisy power supply.
With a DAC board like that, you’ve lost sight of your original goal.
To put this in perspective: I wasted about 10 years on these kinds of cheap DIY DAC boards—as well as much better ones—only to realize that even with extreme modifications and a huge investment of time and money, you still can't match the level of engineering found in today’s €75–€120 DACs.
Something similar applies to I2S (over LVDS/HDMI). Without effective jitter prevention or reduction at the source or in the receiving DAC, it is significantly inferior to other signal transmission methods and highly susceptible to jitter. I also spent several years looking into I2S as an alternative to USB, but without highly complex jitter-reduction mechanisms, it simply doesn't make sense.
A used, older SACD or SACD/DVD player would likely be a better solution than a setup involving a cheap DAC board; plus, it outputs full resolution via its RCA outputs. You can pick up such devices used for under €100.
- Thread Starter
- #36
I cant disagree with anything you have said. Its a rabbit hole and im in it. Im browsing the DIY forums and looking at what people have done with this type of thing in the past.
All i can say in my defence is: Its a hobby!
I got a great kick out of setting up an obsolete micro computer, to function with the ZD3 for DSD playback (DSF, DFF, WV). Was quite tempted to set it up headless but it works such a charm with a standard Linux distro and Cantata.
Everything you said is probably 100% accurate. And in all likelihood, the solution will be:
- An Proper Extractor set up for either PCM or DoP
- A suitable DAC for the above.
- Certainly i have looked at USED markets in Ireland. There are a few stadard SACD players, which have vintage (but reasonable) DACs inside (Denon 1713, 1920 etc)
Roland68
Master Contributor
Just to be clear, I’m not trying to talk anyone out of the fun of DIY here.
Quite the opposite, actually; if you want to learn about and experiment with DAC boards, power supplies, I2S, I2S over LVDS/HDMI, USB-to-I2S, digital transceiver boards, and so on, these inexpensive boards are excellent for that purpose.
You just shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking they can match well-engineered, affordable commercial units—and you certainly won't save money this way. That wasn't always the case in the past.
The SMSL SU-2 would likely be a great option to pair with an HDMI audio extractor board, especially since it supports DoP64.
If you ever find yourself needing a USB input, that can be added cheaply and without compromise. Even then, it remains one of the most affordable balanced DACs with a built-in power supply.
As for SACD players, you might want to look into the Sony DVP-NS900V; you can sometimes find one for €100–200. It also features multi-channel output.
It’s something of a hidden gem; even used units costing over €1,000 are barely any better in terms of measurements or sound quality.
- Thread Starter
- #38
Just one more thing. If its the wrong place to discuss these type of DIY projects i completely get it.
Its a rough outline but i think some of the issues could be handled if i DID go down the DIY road
By utilizing the Coaxial input instead of raw I2S pins, I’m counting on the ES9039Q2M chip’s internal DPLL to help clean up the timing inconsistencies from the cheap extractor board.
I will be bench-testing the board to check the thermal load on the voltage regulators and will add small Raspberry Pi style heatsinks if they run hot. Trust me, you haven’t lived if you haven’t had to cool the VRMs on a Ryzen motherboard (I've had nightmares about it) — but I managed it, so this is not insurmountable!
If the op-amp is socketed (difficult to confirm at present), I might swap the stock 5532 for a genuine LM4562 down the road just for fun. I will be using RCA as opposed to XLR anyway, so a single dual-channel path fits the downstream stack perfectly.
Its a thought experiment - possibly goes no-where - it falls into the 'just for fun' drawer - But yes a DOP/PCM extractor and a STandard dac is handier, if a bit more expensive
- Thread Starter
- #39
Absolutely
Oddly enough i was looking at the SU-2 earlier - it gets a lot of hate for the removal of the USB port - but definitely DOP capable.
It has its display too, which would confirm the signal is what it should be inthis case - DSD
EDIT - I cannot find DOP capable extractors anywhere except China so - it may be the exact HDMI DOP extractor that would be used in my 'DIY Though experiment'
Roland68
Master Contributor
You can forget about that idea. The jitter-reduction circuitry used by manufacturers like SMSL, Topping, and others is more complex than the entire PCB of a typical budget Chinese DAC, and it has been undergoing continuous development for years.
In my experience, you can skip the heatsinks on boards like these; they won't do you any good.
Fortunately, I no longer have to deal with that kind of tinkering in the IT world. As a former IT hardware expert and Windows specialist, I know exactly why I own a Mac and no longer tinker with hardware
You didn't read my post properly.
It makes no difference whether you use RCA or XLR; the filter circuit alone requires at least two dual op-amps, and even that is far from optimal.
If you use a single dual op-amp for both channels, the filter is bound to be rubbish.
The SU-2 is only criticized by people who lack the ability to look beyond their own narrow horizons.
It is one of the most affordable balanced DACs with excellent measurements and a built-in power supply.
When paired with the SMSL PO100 2024 USB DDC (costing around €40), it’s not just one of the cheapest options—it also offers galvanic isolation via Toslink.
Similar threads
