Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review

[SoySalsaPicante]

I never implied it was necessary, was just curious as to what happens when trying to hit reference level or a few dbs below....

Here's the highest I can/will go measured from a distance of 100cm from the sub/135cm from either speaker:

 

[5150]

This is a room-corrected measurement (DIRAC Live 12.5-350Hz) taken from 8' away. I'm a little concerned about attempting to play my speakers loud enough from 8' away to hit 105dB at the main listening position (this equates to approximately 113dB at one meter away or 153dB at a distance of 0cm).

Who knows what kind of wildness the graph will show if I move the mic to 1 meter and/or disable room correction. It's there for a reason.

Furthermore, if I play it at 105dB at a distance of 1 meter, I'd be hitting 97dB at the main listening position. This is quite loud and at this point rather academic--I would never listen anywhere that loud.

If you feel that such a level of performance is necessary, then I think it is fair to state that no subwoofer anywhere near that price will pass muster. I don't think it makes sense to buy a McLaren for driving to the corner bodega.

Please note the room is 13' deep, 22' wide, and 8' high, with permanently open doorways on the rear and right side walls.

Again, no mention of what "that price" is. The old one, or the new one? It is a very significant difference, which destroyed the value proposition of the L12.

Hsu VTF-2 handily outperforms it either way. SB2000 is louder than four L12s for only $100 more. Multiples of Klipsch R-12, Dayton SUB1200/1500, can be had for the price of one L12 these days, etc.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Again, no mention of what "that price" is. The old one, or the new one? It is a very significant difference, which destroyed the value proposition of the L12.

Hsu VTF-2 handily outperforms it either way. SB2000 is louder than four L12s for only $100 more. Multiples of Klipsch R-12, Dayton SUB1200/1500, can be had for the price of one L12 these days, etc.

So loudness is your only metric then? My PC-2000 Pro, SB-3000, and pair of 3000 Micros were all outperformed by this sub in terms of bottom-end extension as well as distortion level. All of those subs are higher retail cost than the current price of an L12.

 

[5150]

So loudness is your only metric then? My PC-2000 Pro, SB-3000, and pair of 3000 Micros were all outperformed by this sub in terms of bottom-end extension as well as distortion level. All of those subs are higher retail cost than the current price of an L12.

Loudness is the most important metric, actually, yes. Try it by another name - headroom. The higher a subs peak output capability in a given space, the less distorted and more transparent it will be in practical use.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Loudness is the most important metric, actually, yes. Try it by another name - headroom. The higher a subs peak output capability in a given space, the less distorted and more transparent it will be in practical use.

What you're saying holds true if any of the subs being compared are being pushed hard. As this is system- and use-specific, you don't have a dispute over my use case and I don't have a dispute over your use case. Why? Because clearly, there is more than necessary headroom with the L12 in my use case, as I have already demonstrated above. If your use case requires greater headroom, then by all means, just buy what gives you the capability you need. You felt the need to dispute my clearly factual statement that this sub reaches lower than another sub I've owned in my room and system, alleging that I am lying, I produced the numbers. Then you go on to keep arguing your use case when it applies to you, and not to me.

I do not take kindly to being called a liar. Fuck off.

 

[Sokel]

Here's the highest I can/will go measured from a distance of 100cm from the sub/135cm from either speaker:
View attachment 490225

You have to use 50dB range at your charts, to align with the rest of the charts here.
Yours is 240dB!

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

You have to use 50dB range at your charts, to align with the rest of the charts here.
Yours is 200dB!

Happy to make that adjustment going forward. Any other recommendation or suggestions for how I reconfigure REW? I didn't really mess with it much, "out of the box."

I am, however, not retaking my measurements from earlier today. I use this system for listening to music, not for measuring its output.

 

[Sokel]

Happy to make that adjustment going forward. Any other recommendation or suggestions for how I reconfigure REW? I didn't really mess with it much, "out of the box."

I am, however, not retaking my measurements from earlier today. I use this system for listening to music, not for measuring its output.

There's no reason to retake them if you save them, you can do whatever you want with them afterwards, while listening to music.
At chart you posted (SPL and Phase) we usually use 50dB range (100dB to 50dB) at Y-axis and 20Hz-20kHz at X-axis.

You can easily set it choosing "Limits" at the upper-right corner of the chart or by mouse wheel at the chart's outer lines, where the numbers are.
Also, use 1/12 or 1/24 smoothing in general or 1/3 or 1/6 to see FR trends easy.

A good practice is to measure L and R on their own for starters and then all together.

You'll get around it by using it, we all did it this way more or less.

Edit:If you want to do it right from the start, use @Keith_W 's guide:

Taking and Interpreting Measurements with REW (FREE eBook)

A few years ago, Amir wrote Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1 and Part 2. The third part has never materialized despite many requests. In the meantime, there is a clear need for clear guide on how to take room measurements because we are seeing more and more people take and post their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

There's no reason to retake them if you save them, you can do whatever you want with them afterwards, while listening to music.
At chart you posted (SPL and Phase) we usually use 50dB range (100dB to 50dB) at Y-axis and 20Hz-20kHz at X-axis.

You can easily set it choosing "Limits" at the upper-right corner of the chart or by mouse wheel at the chart's outer lines, where the numbers are.
Also, use 1/12 or 1/24 smoothing in general or 1/3 or 1/6 to see FR trends easy.

A good practice is to measure L and R on their own for starters and then all together.

You'll get around it by using it, we all did it this way more or less.

Edit:If you want to do it right from the start, use @Keith_W 's guide:

Taking and Interpreting Measurements with REW (FREE eBook)

A few years ago, Amir wrote Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1 and Part 2. The third part has never materialized despite many requests. In the meantime, there is a clear need for clear guide on how to take room measurements because we are seeing more and more people take and post their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes, I normally run 20-20K. I only knew the sub plays dramatically lower frequency than that because of the graphs in DIRAC Live.

 

[Sokel]

Yes, I normally run 20-20K. I only knew the sub plays dramatically lower frequency than that because of the graphs in DIRAC Live.

They seem to do, but by adjusting the scale you will easily see that there's a 15dB rise at about 60Hz which can easily make the sound boomy and confined and has to be addressed.
That's the things we search with REW and that's its enormous usefulnesses.

All the above is for integrating subs with mains, etc.
When you done with it it's more useful to use MMM method to measure for the room.

But one thing at a time.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

They seem to do, but by adjusting the scale you will easily see that there's a 15dB rise at about 60Hz which can easily make the sound boomy and confined and has to be addressed.
That's the things we search with REW and that's its enormous usefulnesses.

All the above is for integrating subs with mains, etc.
When you done with it it's more useful to use MMM method to measure for the room.

But one thing at a time.

The 60Hz peak is in the measurement taken at 100cm from the sub. This is nowhere near my listening position. If you look at the earlier graph I posted from much closer to my listening position, that peak is not manifest, because the room correction profile is calibrated to a position near the first measurement, significantly far away from the location of the second measurement (I only measured at 100cm because my understanding is that this is the standard distance for such measurements; my first measurement was more representative of the DIRAC Live profile as it was set for sweet spot listening. I also have a separate profile for group listening/movie watching which takes more measurements from a much wider area).

 

[Sokel]

The 60Hz peak is in the measurement taken at 100cm from the sub. This is nowhere near my listening position. If you look at the earlier graph I posted from much closer to my listening position, that peak is not manifest, because the room correction profile is calibrated to a position near the first measurement, significantly far away from the location of the second measurement (I only measured at 100cm because my understanding is that this is the standard distance for such measurements; my first measurement was more representative of the DIRAC Live profile as it was set for sweet spot listening. I also have a separate profile for group listening/movie watching which takes more measurements from a much wider area).

If you mean post #857 yes, it's smoother but it has its own set of problems.
Sub seem to get lots of help by the room at its lowest and that's good but we will see it at the rest of the charts.
It also seems signs of overcorrection somewhere, hard to tell where by the scale.

BUT!

It totally worth it to find a day to take your time and do it right. I mean measure right.
Follow the steps of the guide, is easy, save your measurements and there's people here to help you interpret them in depth, that's the value of ASR.
You can even share the .mdat file to help people help a lot more.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

If you mean post #857 yes, it's smoother but it has its own set of problems.
Sub seem to get lots of help by the room at its lowest and that's good but we will see it at the rest of the charts.
It also seems signs of overcorrection somewhere, hard to tell where by the scale.

BUT!

It totally worth it to find a day to take your time and do it right. I mean measure right.
Follow the steps of the guide, is easy, save your measurements and there's people here to help you interpret them in depth, that's the value of ASR.
You can even share the .mdat file to help people help a lot more.

Okay; correction is only applied from 12.5-350Hz. Subjectively it sounded like poo when I ran correction up over 1KHz.

Additionally, post #857 was taken from the seat where I listen, but not where my head is, "locked in a vice;" I couldn't get my mic to reach that far today due to the fact that I calibrate DIRAC with the laptop wirelessly, but I was not running these REW sweeps wirelessly, but physically attached via Toslink, and the mic cable was not able to reach all the way. I'm sure the mic being two feet off the mark has an effect.

 

[Sokel]

Okay; correction is only applied from 12.5-350Hz. Subjectively it sounded like poo when I ran correction up over 1KHz.

That's a good practice.

When you're done with integration, MMM method is more representative of what you hear.
But again, you have to start right. Good data is a little pain but they totally worth it.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

That's a good practice.

When you're done with integration, MMM method is more representative of what you hear.
But again, you have to start right. Good data is a little pain but they totally worth it.

The DIRAC Live calibration takes anywhere from 9-13 measurements from various spots depending on the type of calibration profile (sweet spot versus group listening) and if I'm not mistaken, this is meant to perform something similar to moving microphone method. I used the group listening profile for the second measurement, but the sweet spot profile for the first.

 

[Sokel]

The DIRAC Live calibration takes anywhere from 9-13 measurements from various spots depending on the type of calibration profile (sweet spot versus group listening) and if I'm not mistaken, this is meant to perform something similar to moving microphone method. I used the group listening profile for the second measurement, but the sweet spot profile for the first.

It does, but uses its own way to interpret them and sees the system as a black box.
Making it right as described above gives you a lot more control to it.

Remember, there's two separate things, one is fixing for speakers, like integrating a sub or subs (that's the hardest part) and the other is fixing for the room where DIRAC comes handy.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

It does, but uses its own way to interpret them and sees the system as a black box.
Making it right as described above gives you a lot more control to it.

Remember, there's two separate things, one is fixing for speakers, like integrating a sub or subs (that's the hardest part) and the other is fixing for the room where DIRAC comes handy.

As I’ve moved away from the miniDSP Flex for bass management to simply using the very basic bass management of the Marantz M1, I’ve given up a LOT of my ability to make adjustments based on whatever we can glean from REW. The sound is more than good enough for me nowadays; I haven’t tweaked or messed with anything in my system for weeks—I love the sound as-is. The only tweaks lately have been more around usability and general functionality (I’ve added the ability to play/rip my old CDs, and reintroduced Apple Music as a streaming option on top of Qobuz). These things matter more than borderline undetectable minuscule sonic adjustments. I was happy to give up having separate DSP, DAC, and amp, and replace all the clutter and complication with a single all-in-one that sounds great/good enough.

I spent months tweaking and messing with the wrong speakers and subs. Switched to the right ones and that got me 95% of the way there (along with proper placement). The last 5% I got with DIRAC.

 

[Sokel]

As I’ve moved away from the miniDSP Flex for bass management to simply using the very basic bass management of the Marantz M1, I’ve given up a LOT of my ability to make adjustments based on whatever we can glean from REW. The sound is more than good enough for me nowadays; I haven’t tweaked or messed with anything in my system for weeks—I love the sound as-is. The only tweaks lately have been more around usability and general functionality (I’ve added the ability to play/rip my old CDs, and reintroduced Apple Music as a streaming option on top of Qobuz). These things matter more than borderline undetectable minuscule sonic adjustments. I was happy to give up having separate DSP, DAC, and amp, and replace all the clutter and complication with a single all-in-one that sounds great/good enough.

I spent months tweaking and messing with the wrong speakers and subs. Switched to the right ones and that got me 95% of the way there (along with proper placement). The last 5% I got with DIRAC.

Your gear-your call.
Absolutely ok with that.

 

[5150]

What you're saying holds true if any of the subs being compared are being pushed hard. As this is system- and use-specific, you don't have a dispute over my use case and I don't have a dispute over your use case. Why? Because clearly, there is more than necessary headroom with the L12 in my use case, as I have already demonstrated above. If your use case requires greater headroom, then by all means, just buy what gives you the capability you need. You felt the need to dispute my clearly factual statement that this sub reaches lower than another sub I've owned in my room and system, alleging that I am lying, I produced the numbers. Then you go on to keep arguing your use case when it applies to you, and not to me.

I do not take kindly to being called a liar. Fuck off.

The posts were actually all required to flesh out your initial post.

The use case you could have mentioned at the start: If you listen at about one-eighth reference volume in a small and extraordinarily generous room, I guess an L12 is just fine.

These are not generally the cases people care about when discussing subwoofers, but oh well. That's ASR for you.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

The posts were actually all required to flesh out your initial post.

The use case you could have mentioned at the start: If you listen at about one-eighth reference volume in a small and extraordinarily generous room, I guess an L12 is just fine.

These are not generally the cases people care about when discussing subwoofers, but oh well. That's ASR for you.

Outright and falsely claiming someone is a liar is neither necessary nor a reasonable approach to, “flesh out,” mine or anybody else’s post. I highly suggest you find a better way to do this unless your goal is to simultaneously offend.