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Rythmik F12 vs Rel T9x vs SVS SB-3000 vs HSU ULS-15 MK2

chestera

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Hello, I'm deciding between 4 subs. I am optimizing for mostly music, some movies. Deciding between:
  • Rythmik F12 - $1139
  • Rel T9x - $1249
  • SVS SB-3000 - $1200
  • HSU ULS-15 MK2 - $1084 shipped
Any thoughts on which one is best for a clean musical sound?
 

MarkS

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My opinion: they will all sound the same on music.

Max power at very low frequencies might relevant for movies if you have a big room.

Depending on your room, you might be better off with two SVS SB-1000s rather than one SB-3000, to help combat room modes.

Subwoofer comparison spreadsheet:

Discussion:
 

Chrispy

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More info needed other than your general mix of media. Rel I'd not consider at all. I'd look at ported models myself. Is it a four sub system or a single sub? Room details?
 
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Clean and musical sound depends purely on integration. "Musical" subwoofers are an absurd myth.

REL subs typically have no real subbass output so they can't excite room modes as much as proper subs like SVS, Rhytmik or HSU.
 

dfuller

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The F12 keeps up nicely with a pair of KH310s. The SB-3000 gets marginally louder, but not substantially.
 
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archerious

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Which sub did you go for OP?
 

NewbieAudiophileExpert

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I like my sb1000

people say rel is top notch, but i think it's gimmicky - although the class AB amp might do some work?
 

DonH56

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I am not a fan of REL due to their marketing stuff. Hsu has been around "forever" and SVS for quite a while; both are respected brands IME/IMO. My personal choice is Rythmik, partly because they use a servo design similar to the DIY servo sub I designed for myself back around 1980 or so. I researched a number of techniques (OK, there weren't all that many), and decided upon a servo design with voice coil sensing as optimum to produce a lot of bass, very low response, and low distortion in a reasonable sized box. There are other paths to low distortion, and other ways to implement a servo, but that was the best I could design at that time. Many years later, looking for subs, I stumbled upon Brian (Dr. Brian Ding, the man behind Rythmik) and discovered a similar design philosophy plus he's a nice guy with a similar day job to mine. The company has an outstanding reputation for performance and support (as do others, natch). I bought a pair of F12's in early 2010 and have bought several since for my own system and for my boys (who got my hand-me-downs).

FWIWFM - Don
 

NewbieAudiophileExpert

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I am not a fan of REL due to their marketing stuff. Hsu has been around "forever" and SVS for quite a while; both are respected brands IME/IMO. My personal choice is Rythmik, partly because they use a servo design similar to the DIY servo sub I designed for myself back around 1980 or so. I researched a number of techniques (OK, there weren't all that many), and decided upon a servo design with voice coil sensing as optimum to produce a lot of bass, very low response, and low distortion in a reasonable sized box. There are other paths to low distortion, and other ways to implement a servo, but that was the best I could design at that time. Many years later, looking for subs, I stumbled upon Brian (Dr. Brian Ding, the man behind Rythmik) and discovered a similar design philosophy plus he's a nice guy with a similar day job to mine. The company has an outstanding reputation for performance and support (as do others, natch). I bought a pair of F12's in early 2010 and have bought several since for my own system and for my boys (who got my hand-me-downs).

FWIWFM - Don
Is this what you mean?

 

DonH56

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Is this what you mean?

I can't view videos at work, but I was referring to their claim that using the main amplifier outputs to drive the sub allows it to maintain the same "sound" as the mains, whilst running the mains full-range. That obviates some of the biggest advantages of owning a subwoofer IME/IMO. As for the performance of the subs themselves, I have no experience.
 

NewbieAudiophileExpert

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I can't view videos at work, but I was referring to their claim that using the main amplifier outputs to drive the sub allows it to maintain the same "sound" as the mains, whilst running the mains full-range. That obviates some of the biggest advantages of owning a subwoofer IME/IMO. As for the performance of the subs themselves, I have no experience.
Haha, yeah I saw that one also - personally though, I thought that was actually OK and I like how you can feed both a speaker-level output and the sub-out/pre-out at the same time... although the idea of a 'special connector' instead of just speaker level ins was kinda gimmicky IMO.

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure the subs are great, i just feel that some of the features were only put there to facilitate the premium price tag...

Take for example stacking two rows with 3 subs on each... uhmmm ok... wouldn't there just be a better alternative like DIY 18 inch dayton subs in custom enclosures? lol
 

DonH56

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Haha, yeah I saw that one also - personally though, I thought that was actually OK and I like how you can feed both a speaker-level output and the sub-out/pre-out at the same time... although the idea of a 'special connector' instead of just speaker level ins was kinda gimmicky IMO.
The problem is that you do not remove the deep bass from the speakers. They still have to deal with the full frequency range instead of relieving the main amplifiers and speakers from the deep bass. It reduces amplifier headroom and increases speaker distortion. I'd rather let my subs do their job and free up the mains for where they do best.

YMMV - Don
 

NewbieAudiophileExpert

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The problem is that you do not remove the deep bass from the speakers. They still have to deal with the full frequency range instead of relieving the main amplifiers and speakers from the deep bass. It reduces amplifier headroom and increases speaker distortion. I'd rather let my subs do their job and free up the mains for where they do best.

YMMV - Don
Well that would indeed be the case in a scenario where the speakers are being driven at a 'high load' - most certainly removing the lower frequencies would open up bandwidth and allow the amplifier to dedicate more energy to drive the speakers at 80hz and above.. so they could go louder..

Although, i wonder how much this would affect an 'at home scenario' where the amp is being driven to 20% of the max load anyway?

In this case, it would be fun to experiment? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but sometimes it could be fun to play around with different input(s) and splitting methods for the subwoofer(s).
 

DonH56

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Well that would indeed be the case in a scenario where the speakers are being driven at a 'high load' - most certainly removing the lower frequencies would open up bandwidth and allow the amplifier to dedicate more energy to drive the speakers at 80hz and above.. so they could go louder..

Although, i wonder how much this would affect an 'at home scenario' where the amp is being driven to 20% of the max load anyway?

In this case, it would be fun to experiment? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but sometimes it could be fun to play around with different input(s) and splitting methods for the subwoofer(s).
Look up "equal loudness curves", e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour . It takes a LOT more power for deep bass to sound as loud as the midrange, one reason people tend to increase the bass volume. Note 10 dB is 10 times the power, 20 dB is 100 times the power, 30 dB is 1000 times the power, so even if you are only using a watt or two in the midrange at say 60 dB SPL, 100 Hz requires 100 W for the same perceived volume, and 50 Hz 1000 W. Chances are you won't be boosting to quite that extreme, but bass requires a lot more power than midrange, a primary reason to offload it to special-purpose subwoofers made to handle the load.

Feel free to experiment, many have, as this research is not new.
 

Muddywaters

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Well in an effort to conserve digital paper and not create a new thread I'm looking at grabbing a pair of subs to supplement/enhance my room acoustics with the new KEF LS60's coming sometime next week.

Using @sweetchaos amazing spreadsheet I took a look at HSU's ULS 15MK2, the Rythmik F12 and checked SVS in a similar price range. My room is dedicated to music, 14.3' X 16.6'. GIK trapping is coming in some already installed. With Black Friday going on I'm leaning toward the HSU pair with their sizeable price advantage over a pair of F12's.

The F12 and ULS are neck and neck in the lowest frequency regions but the HSU starts pulling away with 5-7 dB greater output from 50hz up. What am I missing or should reconsider for the Rythmik fans? Maybe the additional headroom of the HSU is moot?

BTW @DonH56 love the horn. my silver Severinsen Getzen hangs, blackly tarnished and all gummed up in our cabana garage after Hurricane Ian flooded our home over a year ago. Sad...
 

DonH56

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Well in an effort to conserve digital paper and not create a new thread I'm looking at grabbing a pair of subs to supplement/enhance my room acoustics with the new KEF LS60's coming sometime next week.

Using @sweetchaos amazing spreadsheet I took a look at HSU's ULS 15MK2, the Rythmik F12 and checked SVS in a similar price range. My room is dedicated to music, 14.3' X 16.6'. GIK trapping is coming in some already installed. With Black Friday going on I'm leaning toward the HSU pair with their sizeable price advantage over a pair of F12's.

The F12 and ULS are neck and neck in the lowest frequency regions but the HSU starts pulling away with 5-7 dB greater output from 50hz up. What am I missing or should reconsider for the Rythmik fans? Maybe the additional headroom of the HSU is moot?
The Hsu looks like a good sub. Rythmik has the servo, which may reduce distortion, and additional control features you may or may not need. I did not look closely at prices; it looks like the Rythmik F12 is about $100 more (each)? I may not have Black Friday pricing, however. I have not heard a Hsu in ages so cannot comment on how they might compare other than from specs and reviews (though am quite happy with my F12's). The Hsu probably has more output due to its larger size. Since I am a fan of servos, appreciate the extra control flexibility, and respect Brian Ding (similar day job to mine, at least before I retired, and a very nice guy to speak with), I'd stay with Rythmik, but I suspect you'd be happy with either.

I would consider their integration features; Rythmik's variable crossover and continuous phase/delay controls may make it easier to integrate into a two-channel system if you are not using some sort of room correction program. I did not see a manual for the Hsu, and no picture of the back, so do not know what it has for controls and such.
BTW @DonH56 love the horn. my silver Severinsen Getzen hangs, blackly tarnished and all gummed up in our cabana garage after Hurricane Ian flooded our home over a year ago. Sad...
Thanks! That's a Flip Oakes Wild Thing, a custom'ish horn designed by Flip and manufactured by Kanstul (Flip has retired, and Kanstul shut down a few years ago when Zig left us :( ). I still play some, and planned to do more, but it's been a tough year. Currently I am (supposed to be) leading a local group's Christmas production, but eye surgery has sidelined me the past couple of weeks, with another few days at least until I can play. Hopefully back on it soon, and need to freshen up my picc playing...

I never owned a Severinsen though tried a few, as well as some other Getzens. They are still going strong, and Doc is still playing now and then after "retiring". Amazing guy, met him a few times over the years.
 

MoreWatts

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I just ordered a HSU ULS 15MK2. The sale was ~$100 off, so not a huge BF deal. I'm going to try one, and then measure at my main listening position to see if I really need two. The calibrated UMIK-1 mics are on back-order from Cross-Spectrum, so it might be awhile before I post an update. I'll run this with a pair of Revel F208s, which have really nice bass output. During a recent film watch a bass rumble shook the house, similar to a subwoofer blast. I assume I'll have to 'batten down the hatches' with the subwoofer. :cool:
 

middlemarch

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I think you'll be happy with those HSUs. I have two of those in my 2.2 system with M106s and am very happy with the setup. Bass control with MiniDSP 2x4HD and Dirac Live
 

Muddywaters

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Sorry for the tardy response, I appreciate the responses.

I decided on ordering the HSU pair. My LS60’s are near. Waiting on a call from some random delivery company now.

@DonH56 thanks for your detailed response. The actual $ difference delivered would’ve been ~$400 ( $2018 vs $2398) for the pair but that’s not a major impediment. I’ll eventually be playing with PEQ and have a Dirac DLBC pc license too. Have some learning curve to work through. Having the additional headroom could be important using Dirac especially.

Here’s the spreadsheet results. I’m a bit lacking in excel skills so the top row, (also ULS 15MK2) got messed up and shifted left a column, results were from Audioholics.

HSU_Ryth_SVS_Data_Comparo.jpeg


HSU Manual
IMG_1612.jpeg

You’re correct regarding a bit more flexibility if relying solely on the sub controls.
 
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