Rythmik F12 vs Rel T9x vs SVS SB-3000 vs HSU ULS-15 MK2

[chestera]

Hello, I'm deciding between 4 subs. I am optimizing for mostly music, some movies. Deciding between:

• Rythmik F12 - $1139
• Rel T9x - $1249
• SVS SB-3000 - $1200
• HSU ULS-15 MK2 - $1084 shipped

Any thoughts on which one is best for a clean musical sound?

 

[MarkS]

My opinion: they will all sound the same on music.

Max power at very low frequencies might relevant for movies if you have a big room.

Depending on your room, you might be better off with two SVS SB-1000s rather than one SB-3000, to help combat room modes.

Subwoofer comparison spreadsheet:

Subwoofer Comparison (by @sweetchaos)

Comparison Manufacturer (sorted by, first),Model (sorted by, second), Discontinued ,Mfg Link,Manual,Price,Currency,Frequent Sale Price,Currency to USD exchange rate (Column can be hidden),Currency to CAD exchange rate (Column can be hidden),Currency to EUR exchange rate (Column can be hidden),Cu...

docs.google.com

Discussion:

Subwoofer Comparison

I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. o_O Do you wish to purchase a new subwoofer, but unsure of what to buy? You've come to the right place! How do you judge a subwoofer's performance? -Read the 'flowery' words on the manufacturer's website? -Listen to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

More info needed other than your general mix of media. Rel I'd not consider at all. I'd look at ported models myself. Is it a four sub system or a single sub? Room details?

 

[tetragrammaton]

Clean and musical sound depends purely on integration. "Musical" subwoofers are an absurd myth.

REL subs typically have no real subbass output so they can't excite room modes as much as proper subs like SVS, Rhytmik or HSU.

 

[dfuller]

The F12 keeps up nicely with a pair of KH310s. The SB-3000 gets marginally louder, but not substantially.

 

[archerious]

Which sub did you go for OP?

 

[Jason K]

Arendal 1961 1S

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I like my sb1000

people say rel is top notch, but i think it's gimmicky - although the class AB amp might do some work?

 

[DonH56]

I am not a fan of REL due to their marketing stuff. Hsu has been around "forever" and SVS for quite a while; both are respected brands IME/IMO. My personal choice is Rythmik, partly because they use a servo design similar to the DIY servo sub I designed for myself back around 1980 or so. I researched a number of techniques (OK, there weren't all that many), and decided upon a servo design with voice coil sensing as optimum to produce a lot of bass, very low response, and low distortion in a reasonable sized box. There are other paths to low distortion, and other ways to implement a servo, but that was the best I could design at that time. Many years later, looking for subs, I stumbled upon Brian (Dr. Brian Ding, the man behind Rythmik) and discovered a similar design philosophy plus he's a nice guy with a similar day job to mine. The company has an outstanding reputation for performance and support (as do others, natch). I bought a pair of F12's in early 2010 and have bought several since for my own system and for my boys (who got my hand-me-downs).

FWIWFM - Don

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I am not a fan of REL due to their marketing stuff. Hsu has been around "forever" and SVS for quite a while; both are respected brands IME/IMO. My personal choice is Rythmik, partly because they use a servo design similar to the DIY servo sub I designed for myself back around 1980 or so. I researched a number of techniques (OK, there weren't all that many), and decided upon a servo design with voice coil sensing as optimum to produce a lot of bass, very low response, and low distortion in a reasonable sized box. There are other paths to low distortion, and other ways to implement a servo, but that was the best I could design at that time. Many years later, looking for subs, I stumbled upon Brian (Dr. Brian Ding, the man behind Rythmik) and discovered a similar design philosophy plus he's a nice guy with a similar day job to mine. The company has an outstanding reputation for performance and support (as do others, natch). I bought a pair of F12's in early 2010 and have bought several since for my own system and for my boys (who got my hand-me-downs).

FWIWFM - Don

Is this what you mean?

 

[DonH56]

Is this what you mean?

I can't view videos at work, but I was referring to their claim that using the main amplifier outputs to drive the sub allows it to maintain the same "sound" as the mains, whilst running the mains full-range. That obviates some of the biggest advantages of owning a subwoofer IME/IMO. As for the performance of the subs themselves, I have no experience.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I can't view videos at work, but I was referring to their claim that using the main amplifier outputs to drive the sub allows it to maintain the same "sound" as the mains, whilst running the mains full-range. That obviates some of the biggest advantages of owning a subwoofer IME/IMO. As for the performance of the subs themselves, I have no experience.

Haha, yeah I saw that one also - personally though, I thought that was actually OK and I like how you can feed both a speaker-level output and the sub-out/pre-out at the same time... although the idea of a 'special connector' instead of just speaker level ins was kinda gimmicky IMO.

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure the subs are great, i just feel that some of the features were only put there to facilitate the premium price tag...

Take for example stacking two rows with 3 subs on each... uhmmm ok... wouldn't there just be a better alternative like DIY 18 inch dayton subs in custom enclosures? lol

 

[DonH56]

Haha, yeah I saw that one also - personally though, I thought that was actually OK and I like how you can feed both a speaker-level output and the sub-out/pre-out at the same time... although the idea of a 'special connector' instead of just speaker level ins was kinda gimmicky IMO.

The problem is that you do not remove the deep bass from the speakers. They still have to deal with the full frequency range instead of relieving the main amplifiers and speakers from the deep bass. It reduces amplifier headroom and increases speaker distortion. I'd rather let my subs do their job and free up the mains for where they do best.

YMMV - Don

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

The problem is that you do not remove the deep bass from the speakers. They still have to deal with the full frequency range instead of relieving the main amplifiers and speakers from the deep bass. It reduces amplifier headroom and increases speaker distortion. I'd rather let my subs do their job and free up the mains for where they do best.

YMMV - Don

Well that would indeed be the case in a scenario where the speakers are being driven at a 'high load' - most certainly removing the lower frequencies would open up bandwidth and allow the amplifier to dedicate more energy to drive the speakers at 80hz and above.. so they could go louder..

Although, i wonder how much this would affect an 'at home scenario' where the amp is being driven to 20% of the max load anyway?

In this case, it would be fun to experiment? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but sometimes it could be fun to play around with different input(s) and splitting methods for the subwoofer(s).

 

[DonH56]

Well that would indeed be the case in a scenario where the speakers are being driven at a 'high load' - most certainly removing the lower frequencies would open up bandwidth and allow the amplifier to dedicate more energy to drive the speakers at 80hz and above.. so they could go louder..

Although, i wonder how much this would affect an 'at home scenario' where the amp is being driven to 20% of the max load anyway?

In this case, it would be fun to experiment? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but sometimes it could be fun to play around with different input(s) and splitting methods for the subwoofer(s).

Look up "equal loudness curves", e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour . It takes a LOT more power for deep bass to sound as loud as the midrange, one reason people tend to increase the bass volume. Note 10 dB is 10 times the power, 20 dB is 100 times the power, 30 dB is 1000 times the power, so even if you are only using a watt or two in the midrange at say 60 dB SPL, 100 Hz requires 100 W for the same perceived volume, and 50 Hz 1000 W. Chances are you won't be boosting to quite that extreme, but bass requires a lot more power than midrange, a primary reason to offload it to special-purpose subwoofers made to handle the load.

Feel free to experiment, many have, as this research is not new.