RPi + CamillaDSP Tutorial

[terryforsythe]

The reason I want it to be cost effective is that it should not exceed the cost of the upcoming Wiim Ultra, which would probably otherwise meet my needs with much less hassle.

Do you need a DAC and, if so, do you already have one?

 

[AncientMariner]

As it is now, it will not "simply work" and be "hassle free".

Thanks for your reply. I don't mind tinkering with stuff. I just meant that getting a Motu M4 and all the RPi stuff needed puts this on the price level of a Wiim Ultra (while the latter is not as capable it does give other stuff such as ease of use). So ideally I would like a solution to be 1/2 the price.

If you want, you can try something like RPi5 with the new Hifiberry 8-channel dac, both of which are reasonably priced for their potential. But there is always the risk of it just not working out and you ending up buying something commercial after a while.

Thanks, I'm not too fond of the 3.5mm connections. As far as I understand the DACs are pretty low quality too? And lastly I can't find any shops that carries it here in the EU. Hifiberry themselves are in Switzerland which causes a lot import issues and drive the price up quite substantially.

Do you need a DAC and, if so, do you already have one?

No, I don't have a DAC for this setup. I would actually have prefered a Allo Piano 2.1, but can't find it anywhere, and also unsure of compatibility since it's a discontinued product.

 

[terryforsythe]

Raspberry 5 is not any better in that regard. As it is now, it will not "simply work" and be "hassle free".

Is that an issue with Moode?

I am using my Raspberry Pi 5 to host CamillaDSP, but do not use Moode - I have a WiiM connected to it via a miniDSP I/O module (MCH Streamer Kit). As I sit hear listing to music my DSP load is sitting around 2.3% (using biquads for EQ), and the fan on my Raspberry Pi isn't even spinning up [EDIT: Correction, it is spinning, but so slow that it is inaudible]. It only spins up [EDIT: to an audible level] on boot, then shortly thereafter turns off. When I use convolution for EQ, the DSP load goes up to around 4.5%, but again the fan never spins up except on boot.

I have had no stability issues whatsoever.

 

[terryforsythe]

No, I don't have a DAC for this setup. I would actually have prefered a Allo Piano 2.1, but can't find it anywhere, and also unsure of compatibility since it's a discontinued product.

If you go with a DAC on par with the DAC in the WiiM Ultra, you probably will not save any money using CamillaDSP unless you already have a Raspberry Pi on hand. You could use a DAC hat for your Raspberry Pi, which is fairly inexpensive, but if I remember correctly it does not measure all that well. I have never heard it, so I can't opine as to whether you would hear a difference.

CamillaDSP is much more powerful with regard to DSP processing than will be the WiiM Ultra. The question becomes whether you will want/need that much DSP processing power, or whether the WiiM Ultra will be sufficient.

Also, if you want to use CamillaDSP, it would be very beneficial if you already are familiar with Linux. The first post in this thread has a link to an excellent tutorial for installing and using CamillaDSP, but using the Linux command line can be intimidating to some people.

I have not played around with Moode. But, given Jukka's comments, perhaps it is not as seamless as using a WiiM. In that regard, I use a WiiM for streaming. I output from my WiiM to my Raspberry Pi via a miniDSP digital I/O module.

Another option is to start with the WiiM Ultra. You always could add a Raspberry Pi and CamillaDSP later on down the road if you desire. From what I read the WiiM Ultra will have a USB output, which I hope will work with CamillaDSP, thus bypassing the need for a digital I/O module for the input.

I hope this helps.

 

[AncientMariner]

If you go with a DAC on par with the DAC in the WiiM Ultra, you probably will not save any money using CamillaDSP unless you already have a Raspberry Pi on hand. You could use a DAC hat for your Raspberry Pi, which is fairly inexpensive, but if I remember correctly it does not measure all that well. I have never heard it, so I can't opine as to whether you would hear a difference.

CamillaDSP is much more powerful with regard to DSP processing than will be the WiiM Ultra. The question becomes whether you will want/need that much DSP processing power, or whether the WiiM Ultra will be sufficient.

Also, if you want to use CamillaDSP, it would be very beneficial if you already are familiar with Linux. The first post in this thread has a link to an excellent tutorial for installing and using CamillaDSP, but using the Linux command line can be intimidating to some people.

I have not played around with Moode. But, given Jukka's comments, perhaps it is not as seamless as using a WiiM. In that regard, I use a WiiM for streaming. I output from my WiiM to my Raspberry Pi via a miniDSP digital I/O module.

Another option is to start with the WiiM Ultra. You always could add a Raspberry Pi and CamillaDSP later on down the road if you desire. From what I read the WiiM Ultra will have a USB output, which I hope will work with CamillaDSP, thus bypassing the need for a digital I/O module for the input.

I hope this helps.

The only reason I'm considering the Wiim Ultra is because of the sub out and bass management. I don't need the fancy screen or anything.

Basically what I need is:
- An airplay connection (tidal/spotify connect would be a bonus).
- A sub out connection and bass management. High pass needed. Low pass I can do on the sub.
- DSP for room correction. I wouldn't mind the ability to play with phase correction that Camilla offers.

So basically, I don't really need or want a Wiim Ultra. It's just it's very hard to find a DAC/streamer with a sub out and bass management, hence why I looked to this solution so I don't have to pay €399 for a Wiim.

Also, I find it attractive to get out of the App based ecosystem of the mainstream developers. Who knows how the support will be in 5 years? It would suck to have an box that can only be setup/controlled with an app that at some point will no longer be updated to new phone operating systems.

So in the end, I'm willing to put in some time to getting RPi to work. Perhaps also a good learning experience. I ordered a RPi 4 just to fool around with. But no DAC/Hat/Audio interface yet, as I don't know what will work.

I saw the Behringer UMC204HD mentioned once in the thread with seach, but whoever mentioned getting one never posted more feedback if it worked. I was hoping maybe someone had that info or could explain how it works, and what is required for a device to be compatible.

 

[terryforsythe]

The only reason I'm considering the Wiim Ultra is because of the sub out and bass management. I don't need the fancy screen or anything.

Basically what I need is:
- An airplay connection (tidal/spotify connect would be a bonus).
- A sub out connection and bass management. High pass needed. Low pass I can do on the sub.
- DSP for room correction. I wouldn't mind the ability to play with phase correction that Camilla offers.

So basically, I don't really need or want a Wiim Ultra. It's just it's very hard to find a DAC/streamer with a sub out and bass management, hence why I looked to this solution so I don't have to pay €399 for a Wiim.

Also, I find it attractive to get out of the App based ecosystem of the mainstream developers. Who knows how the support will be in 5 years? It would suck to have an box that can only be setup/controlled with an app that at some point will no longer be updated to new phone operating systems.

So in the end, I'm willing to put in some time to getting RPi to work. Perhaps also a good learning experience. I ordered a RPi 4 just to fool around with. But no DAC/Hat/Audio interface yet, as I don't know what will work.

I saw the Behringer UMC204HD mentioned once in the thread with seach, but whoever mentioned getting one never posted more feedback if it worked. I was hoping maybe someone had that info or could explain how it works, and what is required for a device to be compatible.

Since you already have a Raspberry Pi on order, and appear not to be afraid of learning new things, give CamillaDSP a try.

Here is a review of the Behringer UMC204HD by Amir: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ringer-umc204-hd-audio-interface-review.9856/

 

[Jukka]

Is that an issue with Moode?

I am using my Raspberry Pi 5 to host CamillaDSP, but do not use Moode - I have a WiiM connected to it via a miniDSP I/O module (MCH Streamer Kit). As I sit hear listing to music my DSP load is sitting around 2.3% (using biquads for EQ), and the fan on my Raspberry Pi isn't even spinning up. It only spins up on boot, then shortly thereafter turns off. When I use convolution for EQ, the DSP load goes up to around 4.5%, but again the fan never spins up except on boot.

I have had no stability issues whatsoever.

Most likely yes, it's an issue with all OSes. Raspberry Pi official web page says:

Does Raspberry Pi 5 need active cooling?​

Raspberry Pi 5 is faster and more powerful than prior-generation Raspberry Pis, and like most general-purpose computers, it will perform best with active cooling. The Raspberry Pi Case for Raspberry Pi 5, with its integrated fan, is one way to provide this.

The answer for RPi 4B would have been "no". If marketing comes up with such answer, it will mean that RPi5 is hotter and more power-hungry, which makes it less ideal for this kind of use. Power draw is not as big problem as the heat is, for me. It's also kind of bad design when your dsp processor is the hottest component on your work computer desk...

I used every trick I could find to draw less power, but the in the end it still heats up to 55 C (best results with Raspberry Pi OS Lite so far), which is burning to touch. Going for another kind of SBC is the real solution, like Zero 2 W, but it has different kind USB ports, so a Hat is mandatory. Some other brand could also be a better solution, you basically need low-power ARM cpu, one USB OTG port and one normal USB port. Zero 2 W has two USB ports, but one of them is for power only.

 

[AncientMariner]

Since you already have a Raspberry Pi on order, and appear not to be afraid of learning new things, give CamillaDSP a try.

Here is a review of the Behringer UMC204HD by Amir: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ringer-umc204-hd-audio-interface-review.9856/

Thanks again.

The questions I have: Is the UMC204HD compatible with the RPi. Or is any audio interface compatible?

Or does it need specific software/drivers made specifically for the RPi, etc? How does it work?

 

[terryforsythe]

Most likely yes, it's an issue with all OSes. Raspberry Pi official web page says:

The answer for RPi 4B would have been "no". If marketing comes up with such answer, it will mean that RPi5 is hotter and more power-hungry, which makes it less ideal for this kind of use. Power draw is not as big problem as the heat is, for me. It's also kind of bad design when your dsp processor is the hottest component on your work computer desk...

I used every trick I could find to draw less power, but the in the end it still heats up to 55 C (best results with Raspberry Pi OS Lite so far), which is burning to touch. Going for another kind of SBC is the real solution, like Zero 2 W, but it has different kind USB ports, so a Hat is mandatory. Some other brand could also be a better solution, you basically need low-power ARM cpu, one USB OTG port and one normal USB port. Zero 2 W has two USB ports, but one of them is for power only.

I'm not sure what is causing your Pi to draw that much power. Perhaps Moode is very processor intensive.

I am running Raspberry Pi OS Lite and CamillaDSP. I leave my Raspberry Pi on so that it always is ready when I want to listen to music. I have been listening to music for the last 3 hours or so. I just checked my my Raspberry Pi temperatures with an infrared thermometer and they are as follows:

Processor heat sink: 111 deg. F. (44 deg. C)
Bottom of case: 105 deg F. (41 deg. C)
Top of case: 90 deg. F. (32 deg. C)

Ambient temperature in my room is 76.5 deg. F. (25 deg. C)

The heat sink fan is spinning, but so low that it is not even audible, even while I was holding the Pi in my hand to take the temperature readings. Again, it only spins up to an audible level on boot.

 

[Jukka]

Thanks for your reply. I don't mind tinkering with stuff. I just meant that getting a Motu M4 and all the RPi stuff needed puts this on the price level of a Wiim Ultra (while the latter is not as capable it does give other stuff such as ease of use). So ideally I would like a solution to be 1/2 the price.



Thanks, I'm not too fond of the 3.5mm connections. As far as I understand the DACs are pretty low quality too? And lastly I can't find any shops that carries it here in the EU. Hifiberry themselves are in Switzerland which causes a lot import issues and drive the price up quite substantially.




No, I don't have a DAC for this setup. I would actually have prefered a Allo Piano 2.1, but can't find it anywhere, and also unsure of compatibility since it's a discontinued product.

M4, not a bad idea! I was looking at M4 some time ago, but didn't go for it because lack of DSP. If you can live with the drawbacks of RPi model B's and intent to not do DAC switching without reconfiguration, it could be a great solution. The Motu M4 could have other use for you even if RPi solution failed, so if you are in a position where spending a few hundred EUR will not hurt anybody, I would consider it a risk worth taking. M4 is powered through the same USB-C port that transfers data? If you need power split cable, get one that actually blocks power to the other way (or another power blocking adapter), because that can damage your equipment. I got one USB cable from Amazon.de that splits data and power, but in reality power goes to both branches, so that failed me right there.

As I stated in my previous post, RPi 4 and 5 generate much heat, if that is a deal breaker, consider other options, like Orange Pi Zero 2 W (hahaha ) or something other. But be sure to look for details before buying. I got the RPi Zero 2 W, but only later found out that the other USB port does not transfer data, so it needs a hat for output (unless somebody comes up with a HDMI to USB audio adapter...). My original plan was to put it on Hifiberry amp, so it's not a complete dead end, it just won't work as in-place replacement for RPi 4 model B. Otherwise the RPi Zero 2 W is much smaller, cooler and cuter than the 4 B.

 

[Jukka]

I'm not sure what is causing your Pi to draw that much power. Perhaps Moode is very processor intensive.

I am running Raspberry Pi OS Lite and CamillaDSP. I leave my Raspberry Pi on so that it always is ready when I want to listen to music. I have been listening to music for the last 3 hours or so. I just checked my my Raspberry Pi temperatures with an infrared thermometer and they are as follows:

Processor heat sink: 111 deg. F. (44 deg. C)
Bottom of case: 105 deg F. (41 deg. C)
Top of case: 90 deg. F. (32 deg. C)

Ambient temperature in my room is 76.5 deg. F. (25 deg. C)

The heat sink fan is spinning, but so low that it is not even audible, even while I was holding the Pi in my hand to take the temperature readings. Again, it only spins up to an audible level on boot.

Well, I'm using small radiator on top of SoC and three other chips, but it's not actively cooled. Also I got my temp readings from the OS (vcgencmd measure_temp) rather than measured outside, so those factors will easily explain 10 C difference. Active cooling is a big red flag for me in this case. None of my audio gear is active cooled and I have no intentions of adding one, espeacially for such meager function as dsp.

 

[terryforsythe]

Thanks again.

The questions I have: Is the UMC204HD compatible with the RPi. Or is any audio interface compatible?

Or does it need specific software/drivers made specifically for the RPi, etc? How does it work?

The UMC204HD has a USB input, which should avoid the need for a separate I/O module for the Raspberry Pi output.

But, you will need to make sure it can receive 3-channel input over USB (two channels for your speakers and one channel for your subwoofer). The UMC204HD may be only 2-channel based on a quick Google search I just did, but Internet forums oftentimes have incorrect information posted, so dig a little deeper. If it is 2-channel only, you will need something else.

Also, based on the Google search, it does appear to work with Linux. Some people reported issues getting it to work, but those probably are just configuration issues.

 

[AncientMariner]

The UMC204HD has a USB input, which should avoid the need for a separate I/O module for the Raspberry Pi output.

But, you will need to make sure it can receive 3-channel input over USB (two channels for your speakers and one channel for your subwoofer). The UMC204HD may be only 2-channel based on a quick Google search I just did, but Internet forums oftentimes have incorrect information posted, so dig a little deeper. If it is 2-channel only, you will need something else.

Also, based on the Google search, it does appear to work with Linux. Some people reported issues getting it to work, but those probably are just configuration issues.

Thank you very much for the info. That was very useful. I was completely clueless what to look for before. Now I have something to go on. I will keep digging.

I remembered I have a cheap Chinese sound card lying around. I might start experimenting with that. If I can get that to work, I might feel more confident to spend more money.

Worst case, I will use the RPi to use with an apple dongle for a simple streamer until I can get a Wiim Ultra. My subwoofer has an 80Hz highpass filter, so I can get the sub working without the need for any devices. Not the nicest cable routing though.

 

[terryforsythe]

My subwoofer has an 80Hz highpass filter, so I can get the sub working without the need for any devices.

Bass is the area where room correction typically is needed most. If you are going to use CamillaDSP, eventually you probably will want to perform DSP for both your speakers and your subwoofer.

If you decide that CamillaDSP is right for you, I would look for a DAC that has a USB input and that outputs at least 3-channels, or an audio interface that does the same. The Motu M4 you mentioned looks interesting but, again, make sure that it will receive at least 3-channels over USB and output those 3-channels to analog, and make sure that it works with Linux (ALSA).

EDIT: See the post below by Daverz - the Hifiberry DAC8X might be a good solution. Never mind, it works with a Pi 5.

 

[Daverz]

Just got my Hifiberry Dac8x and just wanted to report briefly on noise levels. I have the Dac8x hooked up to my Bryston 3B-SST amp in single-ended mode with a mini-TRS to dual RCA cable. The amp gain is 29 dB. Speakers are Buchardt S400 (about 85 dB sensitivity).

If I put my ear right up to the speaker drivers I can hear a quiet hum. It's inaudible a foot away or so. I don't hear any noise out of my subwoofers (SVS SB-1000 Pro).

In other words, nothing to worry about.

Setup was otherwise very easy, and I have nothing exceptional to report about any sonic differences compared to my Motu M4. (I got this for another project, not to replace the M4).

It may be possible to get a balanced connection -- at the cost of one output channel per balanced connection -- by splitting a signal in camilladsp and inverting one of the outputs, but I don't have the cabling (mini-TRS to XLR) to try this right now.

 

[terryforsythe]

Just got my Hifiberry Dac8x and just wanted to report briefly on noise levels.

That may be a good solution for AncientMariner. Not state of the art, but not bad. Price is right - $64.90.

8ch hifiberry hat dac for RPI5

first 8ch hat dac for RPI 5 https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac8x/ Maximum output voltage 2.1Vrms DAC signal-to-noise ratio 112db typical DAC THD+N -93db typical Frequency response 10Hz-70kHz -3dB Power consumption

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Daverz]

That may be a good solution for the OP. Not state of the art, but not bad. Price is right - $64.90.

8ch hifiberry hat dac for RPI5

first 8ch hat dac for RPI 5 https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac8x/ Maximum output voltage 2.1Vrms DAC signal-to-noise ratio 112db typical DAC THD+N -93db typical Frequency response 10Hz-70kHz -3dB Power consumption

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Dac8x hat requires a Pi 5, though.

 

[AncientMariner]

Bass is the are where room correction typically is needed most. If you are going to use CamillaDSP, eventually you probably will want to perform DSP for both your speakers and your subwoofer.

I have EQ at the source (Macbook) at the moment. Had to knock down 50Hz by 17 dB. Even before connecting a sub I had to reduce 50Hz by 10db. The speakers barely need a sub in this room (bedroom) except below 35-40 Hz. In fact might even remove the sub and use it elsewhere, but who knows where I will put these speakers in the future, so I just want to make sure I can use a sub in the future if I need to.

If you decide that CamillaDSP is right for you, I would look for a DAC that has a USB input and that outputs at least 3-channels, or an audio interface that does the same. The Motu M4 you mentioned looks interesting but, again, make sure that it will receive at least 3-channels over USB and output those 3-channels to analog, and make sure that it works with Linux (ALSA).

The Motu M4 is recommended by the OP for Camilla with RPi. So that is a safe bet, but €300 here unfortunately.

For anyone reading this thread in the future and wonder about the viability of the Behringer UMC204HD, it would seem it's only able to output to 2 channels at a time with an A/B selector to chose which monitor you want to output to. So for 2.1 it's out of the question, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Behringer U-Phoria UMC204HD Review - SOUNDREF

Reviewed by: Daren BanarsëReview date: February 2024Current price: Around $120

soundref.com

Screenshot from review attached.

EDIT: See the post below by Daverz - the Hifiberry DAC8X might be a good solution. Never mind, it works with a Pi 5.

I could return the RPi 4, but the problem is the DAC8X is not available anywhere here. Except from Hifiberry themselves in Switzerland. It's an absolute pain to get anything from Switzerland into the EU, so I'd rather avoid that. Also, I don't like the 3.5mm connection. It's a wierd decision by Hifiberry imho. Also wierd they jump straight to an 8 output version (with 3.5 mm connector), instead of 4 channels with RCA.

I'll continue with the RPi 4 and with the sound card/apple dongle I have and use it for evaluation if I can get comfortable using a Pi at all. Then I'll make a decision if it's a route I will pursue. Beside Motu M4, there is still a few other options. One is perhaps finding an Allo Piano 2.1 Hat. It's really mindboggling that no one else made a 4 channel hat in all these years.

 

[illusonic]

How do you guys power off the RPi 4 running CamillaDSP? Will simply unplugging from power work over the long run? Or should the RPi be powered off with a clean shutdown?

 

[terryforsythe]

How do you guys power off the RPi 4 running CamillaDSP? Will simply unplugging from power work over the long run? Or should the RPi be powered off with a clean shutdown?

I have heard that you should do a clean shutdown with Linux, but I never have experienced any problems when I just turned off power when my RPi was idle.

EDIT: I just read some forum posts where people have experienced corruption of their SD cards when disconnecting power from their RPi via an external switch, though that never has happened to me. (On my 3D printer RPi I use the power switch inline with my power supply for turn off).

That being said, I leave my audio RPi on so that it always is ready when I want to listen to music. I reboot if a kernel update comes through when I update.