Rough pop/rock vocals

[tengiz]

If old Abba vocals sounds displeasing to you, I would suggest you have frequency irregularities due to either speakers, room or a combination of both. If it is the speakers, it may not be easily fixed by EQ either.

With regards to Kef, did you listen to the Reference 5 or The R5 (Yes, the naming is confusing)?

Yes, it was the KEF Reference 5 — $12K apiece. I don’t think they set it up properly at all. The room was small (roughly 15' x 20'), which likely messed up the bass response, and it was clearly audible and quite unpleasant. For me, it was so distracting that I couldn’t even bring myself to evaluate anything further.

 

[tengiz]

To my naive eye, that looks very flat for an in-room response - usually you'd expect a downward sloping curve. That'd be pretty bright, wouldn't it?

This measurement was taken using the "Flat" Audyssey curve. Normally, you'd use the "Reference" curve, which has a gentle roll-off above 4 kHz. But I'm getting older, and my hearing isn’t great above 8 kHz, so I can barely tell the difference between "Flat" and "Reference" anyway.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I’ve done it many times while tuning the bass response, but the rest was left to Audyssey and its standard approach to EQ—averaging across multiple listening positions. The end result stays within a ±3 dB band at the main listening position, so I didn’t go beyond that. However, I can see that the vocal fundamentals fall into a dip, while the second and third harmonics land roughly in peaks—potentially boosting those harmonics for female vocals by around 6 dB.

I have a background in physical acoustics (I used to do research that involved building multi-beam phased-array sonars), but my knowledge of psychoacoustics is limited. So I have no idea whether a 6 dB boost in the second and third harmonics is enough to cross an audibility threshold if the vocal is already distorted in the recording.

Still, it does sound plausible to me.

This would be easier for us to read if you screenshot it from the "All SPL" tab, and change the Y-axis so that it goes from 45-105dB. Hopefully this also increases the resolution so that it shows every 5dB instead of 10dB on the Y-axis.

Beyond that, this overall looks (way) too bright, as in not enough bass. This can give the perception of unpleasant highs. Too much highs or too little lows is just two ways of saying the same thing.

 

[goat76]

You said ABBA, but can you be more specific on a song and the time in the track where the harshness occurs? Preferably a track you listen to on a streaming platform, so that other people can find out if the same problem can be heard on their systems as well. That should be the first step.

 

[Mart68]

The speakers in question measure pretty good except for high distortion in the low bass and an odd impedance response.

Martin Logan Ethos - Measured performance

Martin Logan Ethos review

hi-fiworld.co.uk

Have to say did not except ABBA to be named as an example! Thought it would be AC/DC or something similar.

I think the problem is using EQ above the transition frequency. Not wise to let the computer just do its thing there. Try it without that and see if that sorts it.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

I’ve done it many times while tuning the bass response, but the rest was left to Audyssey and its standard approach to EQ—averaging across multiple listening positions. The end result stays within a ±3 dB band at the main listening position, so I didn’t go beyond that. However, I can see that the vocal fundamentals fall into a dip, while the second and third harmonics land roughly in peaks—potentially boosting those harmonics for female vocals by around 6 dB.

I have a background in physical acoustics (I used to do research that involved building multi-beam phased-array sonars), but my knowledge of psychoacoustics is limited. So I have no idea whether a 6 dB boost in the second and third harmonics is enough to cross an audibility threshold if the vocal is already distorted in the recording.

Still, it does sound plausible to me.

6db is a lot. But I don't necessarily see any problem in your measurement. Is that one speaker measured at the listening position or both? I would want to see a measurement of each one individually. Also, expand the vertical scale by zooming in so we can see the variation better.
We seem to have ruled out speaker distortion so that's good.
The next step, if you're interested, is to identify 2 or 3 songs where you hear the problem the worst. I will listen to them and get a feel for it. I am a mix engineer so I'm familiar with effects and mixes.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

The speakers in question measure pretty good except for high distortion in the low bass and an odd impedance response.

Martin Logan Ethos - Measured performance

Martin Logan Ethos review

hi-fiworld.co.uk

Have to say did not except ABBA to be named as an example! Thought it would be AC/DC or something similar.

I think the problem is using EQ above the transition frequency. Not wise to let the computer just do its thing there. Try it without that and see if that sorts it.

Nice job finding these measurements. If they're accurate then these speakers do indeed measure quite well, except for that nasty distortion around 500Hz.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

To my naive eye, that looks very flat for an in-room response - usually you'd expect a downward sloping curve. That'd be pretty bright, wouldn't

This would be easier for us to read if you screenshot it from the "All SPL" tab, and change the Y-axis so that it goes from 45-105dB. Hopefully this also increases the resolution so that it shows every 5dB instead of 10dB on the Y-axis.

Beyond that, this overall looks (way) too bright, as in not enough bass. This can give the perception of unpleasant highs. Too much highs or too little lows is just two ways of saying the same thing.

It might be bright. But we have to know if it's one speaker or two speakers being measured. It looks like two speakers being measured together and that gets confusing because there is some comb filtering from them (hence the peaks and dips above 2Khz).

 

[A Surfer]

While certainly well done for the era, I can absolutely see Abba recordings having some graininess generally and specifically in the vocals. My father loved Abba and I grew up listening to their music throughout the 1980s and enjoy their music to this day.

I would still say that the recordings are generally nice, but I'll bet if turned up the sound starts to become strained. Just my thoughts.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

While certainly well done for the era, I can absolutely see Abba recordings having some graininess generally and specifically in the vocals. My father loved Abba and I grew up listening to their music throughout the 1980s and enjoy their music to this day.

I would still say that the recordings are generally nice, but I'll bet if turned up the sound starts to become strained. Just my thoughts.

But the sound shouldn't change if turned up. Only the gear processing it, the room pressurization and the listeners response to it will change. OP has also said that he isn't listening loud so I don't think we have an issue like that here.
That graininess in the vocals is certainly a tube mic. Quite lovely stuff to my ears.

 

[tengiz]

6db is a lot. But I don't necessarily see any problem in your measurement. Is that one speaker measured at the listening position or both? I would want to see a measurement of each one individually. Also, expand the vertical scale by zooming in so we can see the variation better.
We seem to have ruled out speaker distortion so that's good.
The next step, if you're interested, is to identify 2 or 3 songs where you hear the problem the worst. I will listen to them and get a feel for it. I am a mix engineer so I'm familiar with effects and mixes.

It was both channels together. But it represents it fine because the microphone position was very carefully selected to be at the same distance from L and R and the whole setup is very symmetrical with a rectangular room and acoustical treatment applied to the walls. I would expect the comb filter effect to be present at much higher frequencies than 2-4 kHz. The Microphone position error is much smaller than the wavelength at 4khz.

The ABBA track sample - pretty much anything prior to 1979. But here is one particular track from the Visitors with Frida singing solo much of the time, I hear somewhat unpleasant metallic tone to the voice and it gets exaggerated on electrostats, but is tolerable otherwise:

Here is the plot for the separate L and R, and another plot for TDH at 90db.

Thank you!

 

[tengiz]

You said ABBA, but can you be more specific on a song and the time in the track where the harshness occurs? Preferably a track you listen to on a streaming platform, so that other people can find out if the same problem can be heard on their systems as well. That should be the first step.

Please see my response above.

 

[tengiz]

This would be easier for us to read if you screenshot it from the "All SPL" tab, and change the Y-axis so that it goes from 45-105dB. Hopefully this also increases the resolution so that it shows every 5dB instead of 10dB on the Y-axis.

Beyond that, this overall looks (way) too bright, as in not enough bass. This can give the perception of unpleasant highs. Too much highs or too little lows is just two ways of saying the same thing.

Please see my prior responses on the plots.

Regarding not having enough bass - I find it useful to have what used to be called tone/loudness compensation. The measurement that I posted was taken without it to ensure that it's as flat as it can be. But in real life for me it's always on.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It might be bright. But we have to know if it's one speaker or two speakers being measured. It looks like two speakers being measured together and that gets confusing because there is some comb filtering from them (hence the peaks and dips above 2Khz).

Sure, but usually you see at least as much lift in the bass when measuring in stereo as in mono. But yes, the higher frequencies may be misleading. So would be good to see a left+right (individually).

 

[A Surfer]

And as we turn things up, issues in the recordings can become more apparent, which I referred to as the recording becoming strained. Clearly there are factors that also converge to influence this effect, but I don't think anyone should be surprised to find less than perfect recordings from any era.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

It was both channels together. But it represents it fine because the microphone position was very carefully selected to be at the same distance from L and R and the whole setup is very symmetrical with a rectangular room and acoustical treatment applied to the walls. I would expect the comb filter effect to be present at much higher frequencies than 2-4 kHz. The Microphone position error is much smaller than the wavelength at 4khz.

The ABBA track sample - pretty much anything prior to 1979. But here is one particular track from the Visitors with Frida singing solo much of the time, I hear somewhat unpleasant metallic tone to the voice and it gets exaggerated on electrostats, but is tolerable otherwise:

Here is the plot for the separate L and R, and another plot for TDH at 90db.

Thank you!

This is very useful. First, I think we can rule out speaker distortion. Frequency response could certainly be a contributing factor as the swings from 500Hz -10Khz are a bit wild. If you took 500Hz-1kHz as a region compared to 1.5Khz-4Khz the difference is 6db. Obviously, there are some dips and peaks in it, but that's like turning the "mid" knob down and the "treble knob" up. These vocals actually sound warm and well mixed on my studio monitors (which measure extremely flat). When I EQ'ed them similar to your response it sounded awful, harsh and the artifacts of the vocal effects stood out. That being said, here is some insight into the vocals you have referenced:
1) They have lots of effects.
2) They are layered; there are many voices singing with some mixed quieter than others.
3) They definitely have reverb and some delays added, though I don't think that's the culprit.
4) What I think might be the culprit that you're hearing is an Eventide Harmonizer. It came out in 1975 and versions of it are still used today. It is basically a doubler for the vocal where it adds 2 more voices to the original. One is tuned slightly higher and one is tuned slightly lower. This is a common effect on studio vocals and live vocals (I use them all of the time to thicken the voice). It can start to sound metallic and robotic or harsh in the higher frequencies. This effect can also de created with various delays. I think your frequency response is accentuating this.
5) I don't think it's a microphone choice or a product of any compression as compression was not heavily used during this time period. Though, tape recordings have natural compression and distortion so it could be an artifact you're hearing there.

How close are your speakers to walls and where is your sound treatment placed? Those peaks and dips look like the speakers are too close to the walls and the first reflections are causing some real problems. I would try to get the treatment in a place where it's absorbing less 500Hz-1Khz and more 2Khz-8Khz. This might include moving the speakers further from the walls (sorry if you already mentioned where they are in the room and I missed it).

 

[tengiz]

While certainly well done for the era, I can absolutely see Abba recordings having some graininess generally and specifically in the vocals. My father loved Abba and I grew up listening to their music throughout the 1980s and enjoy their music to this day.

I would still say that the recordings are generally nice, but I'll bet if turned up the sound starts to become strained. Just my thoughts.

I personally adore ABBA, and I'm old enough to remember the year they won the Eurovision Song Contest. That was around the time I first started developing an interest in pop music, and I literally grew up surrounded by their songs.

Later on, though, for many years I considered ABBA "not cool" anymore . But as I got older—in my 40s—and started listening to their music again, I rediscovered just how good they really were.

Yes, I agree: for that era, their recordings were well done - I aremember that, compared to much of the other popular music at the time, ABBA sounded noticeably "cleaner." Yet now, we tend to notice more of the "graininess" in those recordings.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Please see my prior responses on the plots.

Regarding not having enough bass - I find it useful to have what used to be called tone/loudness compensation. The measurement that I posted was taken without it to ensure that it's as flat as it can be. But in real life for me it's always on.

yes, the new graph you posted is nowhere near my suggested scale though.

20-20,000hz
45-105dB

So the graph/scale should look like this:

Further, it would probably be useful to post a graph of the configuration you are actually listening to when experiencing the issue.

"Should I laugh or should I cry" has heavily processed vocals, that doesn't sound all that great. But they're not harsh or very forward in the mix either. But it's always hard to know what a person on the internet hears when they describe sound, so it's hard to know if it sounds right or wrong on your setup (aka, is it the speakers or the recording).

Below are some tracks I use to test this, the vocals on these often trip over into harsh or unpleasant on unbalanced systems. How do these sound to you?

 

[A Surfer]

I personally adore ABBA, and I'm old enough to remember the year they won the Eurovision Song Contest. That was around the time I first started developing an interest in pop music, and I literally grew up surrounded by their songs.

Later on, though, for many years I considered ABBA "not cool" anymore . But as I got older—in my 40s—and started listening to their music again, I rediscovered just how good they really were.

Yes, I agree: for that era, their recordings were well done - I aremember that, compared to much of the other popular music at the time, ABBA sounded noticeably "cleaner." Yet now, we tend to notice more of the "graininess" in those recordings.

Our experiences are virtually identical where Abba is concerned. I absolutely relate to everything that you wrote. I'm well into my 50s so perhaps our ages are also similar.

 

[tengiz]

This is very useful. First, I think we can rule out speaker distortion. Frequency response could certainly be a contributing factor as the swings from 500Hz -10Khz are a bit wild. If you took 500Hz-1kHz as a region compared to 1.5Khz-4Khz the difference is 6db. Obviously, there are some dips and peaks in it, but that's like turning the "mid" knob down and the "treble knob" up. These vocals actually sound warm and well mixed on my studio monitors (which measure extremely flat). When I EQ'ed them similar to your response it sounded awful, harsh and the artifacts of the vocal effects stood out. That being said, here is some insight into the vocals you have referenced:
1) They have lots of effects.
2) They are layered; there are many voices singing with some mixed quieter than others.
3) They definitely have reverb and some delays added, though I don't think that's the culprit.
4) What I think might be the culprit that you're hearing is an Eventide Harmonizer. It came out in 1975 and versions of it are still used today. It is basically a doubler for the vocal where it adds 2 more voices to the original. One is tuned slightly higher and one is tuned slightly lower. This is a common effect on studio vocals and live vocals (I use them all of the time to thicken the voice). It can start to sound metallic and robotic or harsh in the higher frequencies. This effect can also de created with various delays. I think your frequency response is accentuating this.
5) I don't think it's a microphone choice or a product of any compression as compression was not heavily used during this time period. Though, tape recordings have natural compression and distortion so it could be an artifact you're hearing there.

How close are your speakers to walls and where is your sound treatment placed? Those peaks and dips look like the speakers are too close to the walls and the first reflections are causing some real problems. I would try to get the treatment in a place where it's absorbing less 500Hz-1Khz and more 2Khz-8Khz. This might include moving the speakers further from the walls (sorry if you already mentioned where they are in the room and I missed it).

Thank you very much for taking the time to troubleshoot this. Your insight is invaluable!

My room is 14' x 16' with a 9' high ceiling. It was built as a proper media room, with staggered studs so that the drywall inside and outside the room does not share the same framing—helping reduce sound transmission.

The panels are positioned approximately 2.5' away from the back wall and about 3.5' from the side walls. Behind the panels—right in the middle of the back radiation zones—I have Vicoustic absorbers/deflectors covering a 4' x 4' section of the wall. The same treatment is applied to the side wall areas adjacent to the panels.

Additionally, a 4' x 8' section of the ceiling is treated at the first reflection point using the same Vicoustic panels. Behind the listening position, an 8' x 6' section of the wall is also covered with them. The first side reflection points are treated with 4' x 4' diffusers.

The listening position is ~5' away from the back wall.

These particular panels claim to have the NRC 0.9+ for the frequencies over 0.3kHz. I haver no way of measuring it properly, but my experience is that the room sounds pretty "dead".

The swings in the FR over 1k may be explained by the shape of the panel with a cross section ~25cm wide. I think it's more or less in the ballparks of the peaks and dips ~1.3kHz apart (wavelength is 26cm) when averaged over the area covering ~5' x ~2' of the listening space for three - which is what I have and what Audussey optimized for.