• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Rotel RB-870BX vs class D (hypex/Purifi…)

So the message is: Either I have bad amplifiers. Or bad ears. Or both are bad.:)
Or rather, you compared them in such a way that cognitive biases led you astray.
I understand. It's true that the culture of this forum is often a bit harsh, and demanding proper ABX tests when people put forward such "opinions" translates to...
 
Sure, there is no guarantee at all, but
1) the owner reports congestion in fortissimos—not a timbre issue—and as you said, the off-axis curves look consistent, so there’s a chance the speaker could be EQ’d successfully, at zero cost using the WiiM.
3) the operation is reversible, and would help validate the diagnostic as a last resort, with the only risk being that the subwoofer might become localizable.
In that case, the owner can choose whether to add a second subwoofer or change the speakers...
Yes, I am aware that the result isn't guaranteed. I also want to confirm that, as it stands, I am not satisfied solely with the very loud orchestral passages. The vocals and musical instruments sound very good; then again, they do sound different in different concert halls. I will certainly carry out reversible tests as soon as possible and ask you how to proceed with the measurements. My own ears will play a part in the assessment, too, of course. While waiting to run these tests, I will also start considering the option of replacing the speakers.
 
Here’s what I would do if I were in your shoes: sell your Rotel RB-870BX and your PMC GB1s. Add the proceeds to your budget and buy a combo solution—that is, active speakers. I can promise you that for the money you’re spending on those speakers, you can get some seriously good active ones—speakers that deliver genuine, high-quality hi-fi sound.:)
I hadn't intended to replace the speakers, but it is an option worth considering. I have a few constraints. The footprint—including the base and spikes—must be no larger than 20 cm (W) by 26 cm (D). The bass reflex port needs to be front-facing because the speaker will be placed against the wall. I don't think it will be easy to find a high-quality tower speaker that meets these constraints—the very same ones that led me to buy the PMC GB1s back in 2004. Do you have any speakers of this type in mind?
 
I see that a lot of knowledgeable audio experts have come to me, who undoubtedly know better than I do what I hear.:)
So to clarify: To MY ears, purely subjectively, MY AB amplifiers sound a little different than MY Class D amplifiers. :)
I can say the same about my AB vs. D. But it's not the amp I'm hearing, it's what feeds the amp. In case of integrated AB an inferior, old analogue stage compared to a superb DAC in front of class D.

Besides all the requirements for a proper comparison, apples need to be apples first. If the other one is an orange, it's doesn't make much sense. Personal impressions are there of course and that's fine.
 
I hadn't intended to replace the speakers, but it is an option worth considering. I have a few constraints. The footprint—including the base and spikes—must be no larger than 20 cm (W) by 26 cm (D). The bass reflex port needs to be front-facing because the speaker will be placed against the wall. I don't think it will be easy to find a high-quality tower speaker that meets these constraints—the very same ones that led me to buy the PMC GB1s back in 2004. Do you have any speakers of this type in mind?
Neumann KH120 II maybe?

It is my pleasure to recommend the Neumann KH120 II. You owe it to yourself to get a reference quality monitor like this and hear what your source material is supposed to sound like!

Quite a bit of power for the size:

An issue I often have with active speakers is lack of power. Not here. Despite only testing one speaker, I could get to very impressive levels with no hint of distortion above sub-bass (see below).

Dimensions (H x W x D): 287 x 182 x 227 mm

Neumann KH120 II Professional Monitor Speaker Active DSP review.jpg

I take back what I said I would do. Or rather, if I wasn't so attached to my vintage receivers/amplifiers, I would only have active speakers.
I do have a pair of active XTZ Tune 4 speakers that I plug in now and then. Nice active speakers. The Neumann KH120 II is definitely better than them, I should add.:)
 
I see that a lot of knowledgeable audio experts have come to me, who undoubtedly know better than I do what I hear.:)
So to clarify: To MY e.:)

No one here is saying you are not hearing what you say you are hearing, we all know you do.
We use the hear all kind of difference where there is none. We still can, if we want to.
If you stick around, you to, will find out how to differentiate what you think you hear and what is really happening.
 
Last edited:
No one here is saying you are not hearing what you say you are hearing, we all know you do.
We use the hear all kind of difference where there is none. We still can, if we want to.
If you stick around, you to, will find out how to differentiate what you think you hear and what is really happening.
Do you think amplifiers with different measurements sound the same? You can hear for yourself the differences between two Class D amplifiers that are twenty years apart.
 
You are comparing an AV-Receiver with a Poweramp.
 
Do you think amplifiers with different measurements sound the same?
"Cognitive bias: no intrinsic quality can be inferred from size alone."
You can hear for yourself the differences between two Class D amplifiers that are twenty years apart.
"Yet another test riddled with multiple errors... the first one isn't an ABX test."
 
The Panasonic was measured by Amirm. It's not great, but nothing to indicate it should sound harsh

 
It's strange how everyone convinces me that everything is wrong. Instead of simply listening to the comparison of the devices and writing down whether they can hear the difference. :)
 
It's strange, I see the sun going around the earth, but everyone tries to convince me it's the opposite. Yet all you have to do is look.
 
It's strange how everyone convinces me that everything is wrong. Instead of simply listening to the comparison of the devices and writing down whether they can hear the difference. :)
You can test it here. The amps being tested show a difference of 20–30 dB (THD+N). Which is which? Which one sounds cleanest?

...or is it the same amp in both test files?


I can link you to the thread and the person who created the test later.

If you want to conduct the test properly, you should generate the files randomly and perform a blind test. See if you get a valid p-value ( p < 0.05). That is what was done in the thread I’ll link you to later.
 
Last edited:
Do you think amplifiers with different measurements sound the same?
It depends on the difference, it the difference is smaller than what what humans can differentiate, then yes, the amplifier ( DAC, Streamer, cable, interconnect, power line ) will sound exactly the same. Their are, in the context of people listening to them, transparent.
It is great to realize what is transparent or not, as it allows us to concentrate on what is not transparent and sound different, like speakers, room, speaker placement in a room.
The difference we can measure in amplifier are such than if functioning correctly and not of failing design, they make no difference to what we can hear. Really hearing, as proven by science, not what we think we hear.
 
Last edited:
It's strange, I see the sun going around the earth, but everyone tries to convince me it's the opposite. Yet all you have to do is look.
Such a great analogy, thank you.
We could also use flat earth, but yours is better.
 
It's strange, I see the sun going around the earth, but everyone tries to convince me it's the opposite. Yet all you have to do is look.
You did all you could. The YT vid is even in here.

But the review of the Panasonic is way more interesting. What a terrible thing. I don't think it has pre-outs, so you can't hear the bad input stages through the Topping too.
 
You can test it here. The amps being tested show a difference of 20–30 dB (THD+N). Which is which? Which one sounds cleanest?

...or is it the same amp in both test files?


I can link you to the thread and the person who created the test later.

If you want to conduct the test properly, you should generate the files randomly and perform a blind test. See if you get a valid p-value ( p < 0.05). That is what was done in the thread I’ll link you to later.
Thanks for the test. I listened to X and Y a few times, I hear a subtle difference in the treble and upper mids in favor of X. Where is the link to this test?
 
You are comparing an AV-Receiver with a Poweramp.
Comparing these two devices, an AV receiver with a stereo amplifier, is fine in my opinion. The Panasonic contains early PurePath technology from Texas Instruments. It essentially has four Toppings built in - four separate stereo amplifiers. In my opinion, this is an interesting comparison of the development of Texas Instruments' class D technology. Even with the excellent measurements of the Topping and the poor measurements of the Panasonic, I was curious to see how this would affect the sound. The difference in sound is not night and day, as the measurements would suggest. They have slightly different tonal balances, but both sound good.
 
Do you think amplifiers with different measurements sound the same? You can hear for yourself the differences between two Class D amplifiers that are twenty years apart.
Definately here is more going on than just comparing two amps:

1788951463351.png

Frequency response is nowhere near the same. That's not just two linear amps being compared.

Never mind that the level matching is way, way off :facepalm:
 
Last edited:
Came late to this thread. My opinion. With the stated budget there will be no real improvement. A new amplifier will not save the possible flaws of the loudspeakers. It is the loudspeaker making sound. If this should be improved with new ones the budget is too small. Sorry.
 
Back
Top Bottom