Mivera
Major Contributor
Hi guys,
I thought I would start a thread about Roon/Hqplayer since this combination has the ability to provide the best GUI and sound to folks seeking the best of both.
I'll kick this off with something I read Amir said on WBF which is incorrect:
"If this announcement is correct that Aries will be Roon compatible, http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/20...s-at-ces-2016/, then it should work just like I explained to Mike. Since Roon supports sending data to and from HQPlayer, that functionality will be transparent to Aries. Roon for example can send PCM to HQPlayer to convert to DSD and send back to it, which it then in turns sends to Aries for output."
That's not how Roon/Hqplayer works. Roon outputs to Hqplayer, then it sends it straight to either a DAC connected to the server, or a network connected device running the Hqplayer NAA Daemon. The Aries would need to have NAA support in order to work with Hqplayer. Simply being "Roonready" means you can connect Roon direct to the device over Ethernet, but you can't take advantage of Hqplayer. This was the whole point of me making my Superstream unit.
What "Roonready" is, is an audio over IP protocol similar to the Hqplayer NAA (Network Audio Adapter), which Roon developed based on some of the tricks Jussi Lakko uses in his NAA audio over IP system. So far the only commercial streamers that accept the NAA protocol are:
Exasound Playpoint:
http://www.exasound.com/PP/Overview.aspx
And the upcoming Sonore microrendu:
http://www.microrendu.sonore.us
Other than that you must DIY your own device to make it work.
Both "Roonready" and "NAA" are superior protocol's to UPnP for audio over IP.
Here's how the NAA system works:
"Processing is performed by the player application and the processed data is then asynchronously streamed over network to a very lightweight network audio adapter interfacing to the DAC. Asynchronous FIFO provides maximum isolation between processing and audio reproduction."
Here's a little bit about what Danny from Roon had to say about UPnP. Jussi also has a lot to say about it's weaknesses. (At the time they were going to call Roonready, Roonspeakers):
"1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.
OpenHome has the exact same issues, and although they are fixing a lot of the low hanging fruit, we believe the architecture is fundamentally wrong.
Airplay got the above right. By streaming PCM, and with Apple certifying their implementations, Airplay devices are quite robust and always provide a great experience. It doesnt matter what new format or stream the endpoint supports, as long as the source can turn it into PCM. The experience is in the hands of the brain, not the renderer.
Songcast is similar to Airplay in this regard.
Unfortunately, both Airplay and Songcast have two fundamental problems related to sound quality. One is limited format support (no DSD) and that the clock is driven by the source, instead of the receiver (the endpoint surely will have the best crystal in the room).
We plan to solve these problems with the Roon Advanced Audio Transport (RAAT) protocol. The 20+ manufacturers we've spoken to, including Bel Canto that you mention, are loving our solution. It puts the audio in their hands, and the experience control in ours. It compromises nothing for quality, and puts very little burden on the manufacturer. It also allows for expansion, while never creating a lowest common denominator experience."
We aren't there yet, but by next year, we are confident UPnP support will start being second tier in the world of HiFi manufacturers. This is why you are having to deal with "computers" right now. We all hate computers too. If you want no-compromise high quality audio, you need top-end electrically isolated devices. General purpose computers are solving a totally different problem. Roonspeakers aims to solve that by working with every hardware manufacturer, as well as providing multiple DIY solutions ranging from turnkey Adnroid/iOS app to a bit more involved RaspberryPi builds."
I thought I would start a thread about Roon/Hqplayer since this combination has the ability to provide the best GUI and sound to folks seeking the best of both.
I'll kick this off with something I read Amir said on WBF which is incorrect:
"If this announcement is correct that Aries will be Roon compatible, http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/20...s-at-ces-2016/, then it should work just like I explained to Mike. Since Roon supports sending data to and from HQPlayer, that functionality will be transparent to Aries. Roon for example can send PCM to HQPlayer to convert to DSD and send back to it, which it then in turns sends to Aries for output."
That's not how Roon/Hqplayer works. Roon outputs to Hqplayer, then it sends it straight to either a DAC connected to the server, or a network connected device running the Hqplayer NAA Daemon. The Aries would need to have NAA support in order to work with Hqplayer. Simply being "Roonready" means you can connect Roon direct to the device over Ethernet, but you can't take advantage of Hqplayer. This was the whole point of me making my Superstream unit.
What "Roonready" is, is an audio over IP protocol similar to the Hqplayer NAA (Network Audio Adapter), which Roon developed based on some of the tricks Jussi Lakko uses in his NAA audio over IP system. So far the only commercial streamers that accept the NAA protocol are:
Exasound Playpoint:
http://www.exasound.com/PP/Overview.aspx
And the upcoming Sonore microrendu:
http://www.microrendu.sonore.us
Other than that you must DIY your own device to make it work.
Both "Roonready" and "NAA" are superior protocol's to UPnP for audio over IP.
Here's how the NAA system works:
"Processing is performed by the player application and the processed data is then asynchronously streamed over network to a very lightweight network audio adapter interfacing to the DAC. Asynchronous FIFO provides maximum isolation between processing and audio reproduction."
Here's a little bit about what Danny from Roon had to say about UPnP. Jussi also has a lot to say about it's weaknesses. (At the time they were going to call Roonready, Roonspeakers):
"1) UPnP requires codec support on the endpoint, therefore making different endpoints support a different subset of whats out there. This also puts a burden of patent licensing on the manufacturer.
2) UPnP has no good solution for streaming proprietary/unsupported/new formats
3) UPnP creates an ecosystem of lowest common denominator support
4) UPnP lacks "a brain", like the Roon or Sooloos Core, so it cant do intelligent things like Swim/Radio, normalization, crossfading intelligence, those pretty waveforms in the seek position, etc..
5) UPnP leads to a pretty foul experience. Spreadsheets and file management is not how music should be experienced. We haven't seen a good user experience with UPnP, ever. The HiFi dealers agree, and only put up with UPnP because they must. It was clear that UPnP was made by/for endpoint manufacturers, and not user experience creators. Our party line is that "UPnP leads to Twonky". You can put lipstick on that pig, but fundamentally, without a brain, you have Twonky like experience.
OpenHome has the exact same issues, and although they are fixing a lot of the low hanging fruit, we believe the architecture is fundamentally wrong.
Airplay got the above right. By streaming PCM, and with Apple certifying their implementations, Airplay devices are quite robust and always provide a great experience. It doesnt matter what new format or stream the endpoint supports, as long as the source can turn it into PCM. The experience is in the hands of the brain, not the renderer.
Songcast is similar to Airplay in this regard.
Unfortunately, both Airplay and Songcast have two fundamental problems related to sound quality. One is limited format support (no DSD) and that the clock is driven by the source, instead of the receiver (the endpoint surely will have the best crystal in the room).
We plan to solve these problems with the Roon Advanced Audio Transport (RAAT) protocol. The 20+ manufacturers we've spoken to, including Bel Canto that you mention, are loving our solution. It puts the audio in their hands, and the experience control in ours. It compromises nothing for quality, and puts very little burden on the manufacturer. It also allows for expansion, while never creating a lowest common denominator experience."
We aren't there yet, but by next year, we are confident UPnP support will start being second tier in the world of HiFi manufacturers. This is why you are having to deal with "computers" right now. We all hate computers too. If you want no-compromise high quality audio, you need top-end electrically isolated devices. General purpose computers are solving a totally different problem. Roonspeakers aims to solve that by working with every hardware manufacturer, as well as providing multiple DIY solutions ranging from turnkey Adnroid/iOS app to a bit more involved RaspberryPi builds."
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