Room/Speaker Diagnosis Help

[cscs]

Hey all - as the heading says I'm looking for some help diagnosing an issue with my set up / new room.

I've recently moved into a large open concept industrial loft with cement floors and 12 ft tall cement ceilings. The area my system is set up in is approx 850 sqf and its sounding under powered with very lean low end. This was not an issue in my previous home where my living room was approx 350 sqf. Now I need to play the amp to at least 50% to get only 'ok' low end out of the speakers which is not a comfortable for casual listening.

I'm running a Wiim Amp and a pair of Elac Debut 2.0 DF52 floorstanding speakers. Despite this being an entry level set up, it sounded awesome in my previous home. I'm going to add a few extra rugs to the room as well as 6 - 8 acoustic panels (2" x 24" x 48" mineral wool) to the wall behind the speakers, the ceiling above the sofa, and the rear wall to help with the reverb in this place (which is bad). This is the best I can do since I live in the loft and don't want it looking like a recording studio.

Some questions:
- Is it sounding under powered because of the reverb?
- Will the acoustic panels help with the low end?
- If the panels don't help with low end, is my only option adding a sub? or can larger speakers (ie. 8" drivers instead of 5.25") help by pushing more air?

Notes:
- Basic floor plan is attached is to scale and doesn't show any of the other rugs/furniture in the room. Yes the set up location in is not ideal but it's all I have to work with.
- REW SPL graph of my set up in the new room is smoothed to 1/12.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[kemmler3D]

Is it sounding under powered because of the reverb?

It's possible this is hurting the tonality (lots of reflected high frequencies), if you can zip and post the MDAT file, someone can look and see if the decay times for high frequencies are really long and causing problems.

It's also possible you're just hearing the nasty nulls / dips in your low end more. You've got big notches around 65 and 130hz which are pretty musically important. You should do some correction with your WiiM amp on the bass, it should help a lot.

- Will the acoustic panels help with the low end?

Not really, they tend not to do much below 120hz. But, if your problem is due to the reverb, then yes, subjectively they will help bring things into balance.

- If the panels don't help with low end, is my only option adding a sub? or can larger speakers (ie. 8" drivers instead of 5.25") help by pushing more air?

Larger speakers can work, subs can work, but you should try EQ first as it doesn't cost anything.

 

[NTK]

Some questions:
- Is it sounding under powered because of the reverb?

IMHO, the likely answer is that you are now in a much larger room. Below is taken from the section on amplifier power requirements in the ANSI/CTA-2034 in-home loudspeaker measurement standard. If you look at Table 6, your room is considered large, especially as you also have a high ceiling. Your previous room size is below the middle of medium. So for similar listening loudness, your amp/speaker output may need to go up well above 1 "listening levels" (see Table 5) to compensate for the room size increase. When you look at Table 5, that means you probably need more than 10 dB increase (>10x power!). Time to think about PA type system

 

[amper42]

1. I would add a sub(s) and put down some rugs.
if that doesn't help enough then:
2. Try a room divider on one or two sides to make the listening area feel somewhat smaller.
if that doesn't sufficiently help then:
3. The space is 242% larger than previous 350 sf. Place Y cables on the outputs and run a 2nd amp and speakers in a four corner quad formation facing the listening area.

 

[Elkerton]

You don't mention the construction of your previous home. However, your present loft has concrete floors. Our perception of bass is a combination of what we hear And what we feel, so that having a floor which vibrates and sends those vibrations to us physically is a big deal. There's not much you can do about that. In any case, I would add a sub, preferably two to, not only extend the bass, but deal with the suck outs you are experiencing.

Lucky you to live in such a space!

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

IMHO, the likely answer is that you are now in a much larger room.

Yep. I know what the Wiim is rated at, but it will struggle a lot in such a big room

I do think something like a Hypex amp, using the Wiim as a preamp, would be a good improvement. Buckeye has a 500 watt 2 channel for $700, which should more than do the trick, other options/brands are also out there. Something like that will power any future speakers.

Our perception of bass is a combination of what we hear And what we feel, so that having a floor which vibrates and sends those vibrations to us physically is a big deal. There's not much you can do about that.

A LOT of sub power, multiple subs, that will do something. But there will never be the bass presence at lower volumes no matter what you do.


I would start with a calibrated mic and measure, then do what I can, then add power. Then minimal treatment as desired.

BTW, looks like a good spot to set things up and a good space. There are challenges, but a good starting point goes a long way.

 

[Flaesh]

post the MDAT file

+1

it sounded awesome in my previous home

and post this .mdat also))

 

[cscs]

Thanks for everyone's help & feedback on this!

The .mdat file can be downloaded here: DropBox Link

I unfortunately don't have any measurements from my previous place but the living room was essentially a rectangle with a standard 8' ceiling height. The set up was in the middle of the long wall and the floor was hard wood but mostly covered by a rug.

Based on the feedback this is what I'm thinking for next steps:
1. I'll install the acoustic panels this week and remeasure the room
2. Try EQ to fine tune and remeasure the room
3. If the results are still poor, look at a sub or speaker/amp upgrades.

If anyone is interested, I'll post the follow up measurements this weekend.

Thanks again!

 

[basscleaner]

Let me say some words. I apologize in advance, if some of them will repeat my colleagues above. First of all, such a big room leads to reduce bass at all due to energy dissipation. The second, - there is too big window at the left side. Glass, in general, works like a hole for LF and it is one more leak for bass. I doubt that EQ is capable to improve LF response with your old loudspeakers. Evidently, one needs to have more powerful devices and of course, one or better two subs. It's clear too, that there will necessary use acoustical panels on walls and ceiling to get good reverberant balance for mid and higher frequency range. Your issue could be simulated by professional code like EASE, Odeon and DIRAC for the best positioning after you will find LF system position. It's important to remember, that subs can be placed at different points of room space for its power centers, not only floor. Good luck!

 

[cscs]

An update for anyone interested - I did some experimenting with speaker position to try and reduce the comb filtering happening in the low end. There was a small improvement with the lower frequencies where it ended up slightly reducing big dip at 125Hz at the expense of creating a new one at 200Hz.

After that I installed 2 acoustic panels on the wall behind the speakers and 3 on the ceiling above the listening position. The panels are 2" x 24" x 48" with semi-rigid fibre glass cores from Acoustic Panels Canada. I could hear a difference right away both in terms of improved low end punch (most noticeable with kick + bass) and also in terms of overall reverb reduction.

I measured again to see what had changed and the big dip that was created at 200Hz seems to have been balanced out a bit.

After that I used the Wiim Amp's room correction EQ. As some have already mentioned, it did not improve anything that could be seen on the graph. It mostly boosted the higher frequencies but was sounding harsh to my ears so have turned it off.

I experimented with speaker positioning a bit further by bringing the speakers out from the wall so they are now 21" from wall to rear of the cabinets and moved the listening position back by 2.5 feet.

The attached graph has the before (white) which shows some improvement with changes to speaker positioning but without any acoustic panels. The after (yellow) is with acoustic panels installed and the above additional changes to speaker positioning and listening position.

My biggest take away was that the panels installed on the ceiling made a substantial difference but the panels behind the speakers did not. I can't hear a difference with / without the panels behind the speakers and the measurements with REW were identical, regardless of their placement on that wall. I may add those 2 panels to the ceiling and see if more can be achieved there.

I'm still not satisfied with how things sound and will do some additional experimenting this weekend as well as a trip to the store to audition some new gear.

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Thanks for everyone's help & feedback on this!

The .mdat file can be downloaded here: DropBox Link

I unfortunately don't have any measurements from my previous place but the living room was essentially a rectangle with a standard 8' ceiling height. The set up was in the middle of the long wall and the floor was hard wood but mostly covered by a rug.

Based on the feedback this is what I'm thinking for next steps:
1. I'll install the acoustic panels this week and remeasure the room
2. Try EQ to fine tune and remeasure the room
3. If the results are still poor, look at a sub or speaker/amp upgrades.

If anyone is interested, I'll post the follow up measurements this weekend.

Thanks again!

The measurements are supporting what you feel:

You can see, that the bass starts to drop off around 50 Hz steeply.
The nulls @65 and 130 Hz may not be a big problem, but:

See how at 50 ms the 100 Hz range is sucked out?
In addition to the null @130 Hz.

What I like, is that there seem to be no room modes keeping up the bass resonating.
But it means the room in that position does not help to feel a stronger bass.
IMO it's a clear case asking for a sub.

Try the REW room simulator. If it gives qualitatively correct results roughly around the physical dimensions of what you already have measured with your speakers, then it qualitatively should show you, what you could expect by placing a sub (don't forget adjusting the phase).


ps: besides that, I'd recommend to locate the source of the 3330 Hz resonance problem, too (might be just a problem of a single measurement-position (height?))

pps: what is often overlooked, is that you can use the REW noise generator and measure the steady state spectrum with the RTA (real time analyzer) while moving the mic around.

 

[cscs]

The measurements are supporting what you feel:

View attachment 405383

You can see, that the bass starts to drop off around 50 Hz steeply.
The nulls @65 and 130 Hz may not be a big problem, but:



View attachment 405379

See how at 50 ms the 100 Hz range is sucked out?
In addition to the null @130 Hz.

What I like, is that there seem to be no room modes keeping up the bass resonating.
But it means the room in that position does not help to feel a stronger bass.
IMO it's a clear case asking for a sub.

Try the REW room simulator. If it gives qualitatively correct results roughly around the physical dimensions of what you already have measured with your speakers, then it qualitatively should show you, what you could expect by placing a sub (don't forget adjusting the phase).


ps: besides that, I'd recommend to locate the source of the 3330 Hz resonance problem, too (might be just a problem of a single measurement-position (height?))

pps: what is often overlooked, is that you can use the REW noise generator and measure the steady state spectrum with the RTA (real time analyzer) while moving the mic around.

Thanks so much for helping me with this analysis! Would you be able to explain a bit more about the importance of the 50ms measurement?

 

[cscs]

Update - Thanks for everyone's help on this issue. Ultimately I went with a system upgrade and my setup is now: Wiim Ultra --> Emotiva BasX A2 --> Polk Audio R700's.

The speakers made a night and day difference even while being driven by the Wiim Amp. Swapping it for the Wiim Ultra + Emotiva improved low end detail but I would guess most people would struggle to hear a difference in an A/B test. I'm still very impressed by the Wiim Amp!