Room placement and EQ

[WalkingBrass]

Hi everyone!

After receiving so much help here regarding my choice of speakers/amps, I’m coming back to ask for your advice on the whole issue of room placement and EQ. I'm still reading through the REW beginner guide, but I have a few questions before I start taking measurements.

First, regarding room placement : Currently, the speakers are positioned as shown in the photo. The distance between the two speakers is 2.5m, and they are located about 2.7m from my listening position.

I had also considered placing them on either side of the TV stand to make it easier to move around the room. However, if I did that, I wouldn't be able to give them more than 20–30cm of clearance from the wall. Furthermore, there is a hallway on the left side, which I imagine isn't ideal for acoustics/frequencies. Similarly, placing the right speaker right up against the bookshelf didn't seem ideal either.

Could you confirm if my reasoning is correct here? If you see a better layout that also improves movement flow in the room, I’m all ears !


Next, regarding measurements : I do have a UMIK-1, but unfortunately, I’ll have to take the measurements using a MacBook, and I don't have a way to connect the MacBook directly to my WiiM Amp Pro. Is taking measurements via Bluetooth a viable option?

Thanks for your replies !

 

[skankhobag]

The first issue I can see is that your listening position puts your head about a foot from a wall.

Unless you move your listening position toward the center of the room by at least a few feet, everything else you do is a marginal improvement at best.

The reflections from the wall behind you will be the overriding coloration in your listening experience and a foot of acoustic foam might not be able to fix it.

Ideally, your listening position should be around 1/3 to 1/2 the way into the room. Think about how you might be sitting in a concert hall (roughly).

Unfortunately, that L-shaped sectional could be a problem for proper placement in the room. Also, that coffee table can’t be between you and the speakers. It’s a gigantic sound reflector. That will really screw up your perception of the speakers’ imaging.

Looking at it, it seems like you could spin your layout 90 degrees.

Before you start moving everything around, use the office chair to find your best sounding listening position as you have it laid out now. Then adjust your speaker positioning for best imaging and bass response.

If you have the energy, try doing the same thing spun 90 degrees in the room.

You’ve spent a lot money on a sound system. Get it sorted in your room and then get everything else to work around it.

Also, look into some tasteful acoustic room treatment. Speakers and room acoustics are at least 90% of what you experience.

You have two choices:
• Have a living room with a TV and stereo system in it
• Have a listening room/theater

Basically, putting your laptop on the dining room table doesn’t turn it into a home office.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Unless you move your listening position toward the center of the room by at least a few feet, everything else you do is a marginal improvement at best.

I agree with you, as I was looking at the carpet on the wall, I thought, nice try but it will not compensate much for being so close to the back wall.
Moving the seat into the room will make a big change for the better, the speakers placement seems to be well optimized for the space available.
More furniture, like book case, on the side walls would also be beneficial.

 

[WalkingBrass]

Oh wow, I was miles away from guessing that the proximity of my couch to the wall was the main bottleneck, and that everything else would only be marginal improvements. Unfortunately, since my living room is small, I don't really have the option to move my listening position forward that much, or even to rearrange the room :/

So, I think I'm going to return the UMIK and just stick with the WiiM room correction for now.

 

[waofner]

a basic floor plan would be helpful.

-major studio monitor companies recommend to place the speakers less then 0.5 meter from the front wall. Gives less bad bass reflections.

-i also have a similar situation with a hallway open to my left speaker. Everything above about 200 to 300 Hz is not affected. above you only will hear the direct sound from the speaker. The right speaker in front of the shelf will be no problem at all for direct sound.

-maybe your listening position is not ideal, but definatly not hopeless! Millions of HIFI enthusiasts are in a similar situation. The carpet on the rear wall is good! Maybe you put the carpet on a frame with 5 to 10 centimeters depth and fill the frame with damping material.(sonofil,wool, felt,etc.)

-sorry no apple help- not my kind of hardware. ( cheap used laptop or desktop with TV as monitor?)

very importend!!! : don't panic when you do your first measurements. they will look horrible to you- but with the help of forum members and the wiim it will improve to your liking.

have fun!

( i run a pair of Linton's as my secundary listening place, which is indeed very similar to yor situation. the Linton*s have more than enough bass response down to
about 35 to 40 Hz. In my opinon they are little bit too soft from 12 kHz upwards- so try toeing them in to your liking.)

 

[WalkingBrass]

a basic floor plan would be helpful.

-major studio monitor companies recommend to place the speakers less then 0.5 meter from the front wall. Gives less bad bass reflections.

-i also have a similar situation with a hallway open to my left speaker. Everything above about 200 to 300 Hz is not affected. above you only will hear the direct sound from the speaker. The right speaker in front of the shelf will be no problem at all for direct sound.

-maybe your listening position is not ideal, but definatly not hopeless! Millions of HIFI enthusiasts are in a similar situation. The carpet on the rear wall is good! Maybe you put the carpet on a frame with 5 to 10 centimeters depth and fill the frame with damping material.(sonofil,wool, felt,etc.)

-sorry no apple help- not my kind of hardware. ( cheap used laptop or desktop with TV as monitor?)

very importend!!! : don't panic when you do your first measurements. they will look horrible to you- but with the help of forum members and the wiim it will improve to your liking.

have fun!

( i run a pair of Linton's as my secundary listening place, which is indeed very similar to yor situation. the Linton*s have more than enough bass response down to
about 35 to 40 Hz. In my opinon they are little bit too soft from 12 kHz upwards- so try toeing them in to your liking.)

Wow again haha, I thought that the more space from the front wall the better !
I'll dig through my papers to find a floor plan and share it. Thanks !

 

[janbth]

Oh wow, I was miles away from guessing that the proximity of my couch to the wall was the main bottleneck, and that everything else would only be marginal improvements. Unfortunately, since my living room is small, I don't really have the option to move my listening position forward that much, or even to rearrange the room :/

So, I think I'm going to return the UMIK and just stick with the WiiM room correction for now.

I think you should keep the UMIK-1 and start doing measurements the sooner the better. I have my main listening position on a couch close to the back wall similar to you, and I find that I can live with that. Measurements will make it easier to tell.

I also run REW from a MacBook like you, but Bluetooth will not work. Check out the possibility to save the sine sweeps to file and measure the playback.

 

[waofner]

coffee table: irrelevant! no problem at all.

experiment: sitting across a table and talking to a friend: with and without glasses, tableware, whatever,....there will be differences in the measurements but for you, your friend will sound the same. Your brain has to compensate, adept, readjust all the time all day long and it does it very,very well.

if i am wrong: do not dump your table- compensate with wiim eq.........i really don' think it is necessary. i am pretty sure you only will need eq from 300 to 400 Hz downwards.

 

[skankhobag]

Just for your own edification, try using your office chair to find the sweet spot in the room and make your decisions from there.

At the very least, you’ll know how good your system could sound.

Start with the spot that makes you one corner in an equilateral triangle with the speakers.

For critical listening, you can do that and leave everything as is.

Also, the big thing in initially treating the room acoustics is eliminating reflections (floor, side walls, ceiling). GIK Acoustics makes nice looking stuff that does that.

Acoustic Treatment: Panels, Bass Traps & Diffusers | GIK Acoustics

Shop GIK Acoustics for premium acoustic treatment products - including panels, bass traps, and diffusers. Trusted worldwide for top sound quality solutions.

www.gikacoustics.com

 

[Keith_W]

So, I think I'm going to return the UMIK and just stick with the WiiM room correction for now.

How are you going to do room correction without any means to measure the room response?

 

[Ruhled]

I'm in the same position with the near back wall listening position. There's still gains to be had so don't be discouraged. Most listening spaces are compromised vs the ideal. Your wall covering helps a bit. Measure with vs without and you will see. By tweaking several things using measurements and trial and error you can often greatly improve things.

 

[skankhobag]

coffee table: irrelevant! no problem at all.

experiment: sitting across a table and talking to a friend: with and without glasses, tableware, whatever,....there will be differences in the measurements but for you, your friend will sound the same. Your brain has to compensate, adept, readjust all the time all day long and it does it very,very well.

if i am wrong: do not dump your table- compensate with wiim eq.........i really don' think it is necessary. i am pretty sure you only will need eq from 300 to 400 Hz downwards.

coffee table: irrelevant! no problem at all.

experiment: sitting across a table and talking to a friend: with and without glasses, tableware, whatever,....there will be differences in the measurements but for you, your friend will sound the same. Your brain has to compensate, adept, readjust all the time all day long and it does it very,very well.

if i am wrong: do not dump your table- compensate with wiim eq.........i really don' think it is necessary. i am pretty sure you only will need eq from 300 to 400 Hz downwards.

For critical listening, a position against a wall with a giant reflective surface in front of you destroys the entire “you are there” illusion audiophiles and engineers strive for.

In a recording studio, you will see speakers on the mixing board’s monitor bridge, but they’re used for tracking, not mixing or mastering.

EQ and room correction can’t fix a bright, reflective room.

Throwing an audio system into a room and running some room correction software doesn’t turn it into listening room any more than adding a TV turns it into a home theater.

The guy wants a stereo in his living room. Cool. It’s a living room with a stereo. No reason to flog it to death with room correction with casual seating that’s so compromised.

 

[DVDdoug]

Next, regarding measurements : I do have a UMIK-1, but unfortunately, I’ll have to take the measurements using a MacBook, and I don't have a way to connect the MacBook directly to my WiiM Amp Pro.

The MacBook's headphone output?
I would guess that Bluetooth will work too...

Measurements with different speaker locations and possibly different mic/listening positions will tell you a whole lot more than us guessing...

Or just listen with different speaker and/or listening positions. (For EQing room modes it's best to measure to identify the exact problem frequencies.)

 

[waofner]

For critical listening, a position against a wall with a giant reflective surface in front of you destroys the entire “you are there” illusion audiophiles and engineers strive for.

In a recording studio, you will see speakers on the mixing board’s monitor bridge, but they’re used for tracking, not mixing or mastering.

EQ and room correction can’t fix a bright, reflective room.

Throwing an audio system into a room and running some room correction software doesn’t turn it into listening room any more than adding a TV turns it into a home theater.

The guy wants a stereo in his living room. Cool. It’s a living room with a stereo. No reason to flog it to death with room correction with casual seating that’s so compromised.

generally i am with you- but you should not overdo.

i do not know many too reflective rooms, since reading Mr. Toole's book even fewer.

But i know a few rooms that are treated to death- most by "professional" companies for audiophile friends. "must sound good-was expensive"

 

[WalkingBrass]

Hey everyone,

First off, thanks to all of you for the replies !

I made a floor plan to give you a better idea of my living room layout.

Start with the spot that makes you one corner in an equilateral triangle with the speakers.

The current setup is almost an equilateral triangle, but the issue seems to be how close my head is to the back wall.

How are you going to do room correction without any means to measure the room response?

Regarding the WiiM app, I am currently using the smartphone microphone.

The MacBook's headphone output?
I would guess that Bluetooth will work too...

Measurements with different speaker locations and possibly different mic/listening positions will tell you a whole lot more than us guessing...

I plan to buy a 3.5mm-to-RCA cable, but shops are closed today. I'll try via Bluetooth for now and see how it goes. And of course, guessing gets us nowhere, so I'll start taking measurements today !

For critical listening, a position against a wall with a giant reflective surface in front of you destroys the entire “you are there” illusion audiophiles and engineers strive for.

I should clarify something right away: I'm not looking for the ultimate audiophile or sound engineering experience; I know that would require much bigger changes to my setup. My mindset is more: "Let's try to get the best possible sound while working within my constraints."

So the remaining question is : Without completely rearranging my living room or investing a lot of money in room treatment, can I still improve the sound using just EQ and measurements ? Some seem to imply it will only be a marginal improvement, while others say it's worth a shot.

 

[janbth]

So the remaining question is : Without completely rearranging my living room or investing a lot of money in room treatment, can I still improve the sound using just EQ and measurements ? Some seem to imply it will only be a marginal improvement, while others say it's worth a shot.

The answer is «yes». I have the same mindset as you and am able to make a lot of what I have within my constraints. I don’t have any room treatments to speak of, but I have a couple of subs + a little DSP that make a significant difference. Measurements will be a useful guide.

 

[WalkingBrass]

Here are the measurements! I apologize in advance if I did something wrong haha.

So I followed the REW guide (huge thanks to @Keith_W !) and performed MMM measurements for both speakers separately. I also ran a SPS for each speaker individually, with the UMIK placed at the center of the listening position and pointing between the speakers.
The linked thread about MMM mentions using the 90° calibration file and pointing towards the ceiling, but the guide suggests pointing towards the speakers and that's what I did.
Also, since I was connected to the WiiM via Bluetooth, I used the acoustic timing reference, hoping it would help manage the delay.

I still don't really know how to interpret all of this, but I'm posting the data here if you want to take a look. I'll try to analyze it myself as well.

 

[waofner]

i am still optimistic you can acchive your goal.

If you place yor Speakers left from the TV and right from the Bookshelf you shoul get a baseline of about 2,30 meters. leave about 10 cm to the front wall for bass reflex pipes.

Make adjustments so you get equal distance from your listening place to the left and right speaker.

Start listening!!!!!

I assume you will experience some boominess(room modes(resonaces) below 200Hz) and layed back high frequency range.

You need to make room measurements of left and right speaker to find the room modes and EQ the peaks.

You can adjust the high frequency range to your liking, i think a good start would be +3db from 6000 Hz.

Without measurements you can try to close the ports- start with one port on the right speaker (corner/bookshelf)

Good for quick check: Jennifer Warnes:

Way down deep- bass
Light's of Lousianne- hight's

have fun!

 

[waofner]

very nice measurements!!!

adress the 40Hz peaks:
1/12 smoothing to locate the peak, psychoacoustic to get a hint for how much dB you should shave of...
my guess:
left speaker 40Hz -6dB Q: 8 (depends on WiiM) higher value will narrow the effect
right speaker 40Hz -10dB Q: 10

about 410Hz you can try: 410Hz -2dB Q: 2 both speakers

you are almost there......

 

[waofner]

ad on room curve and l+r averages