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Room measurements with KEF R3

EEE272

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I would not be too concerned for below 100 Hz at the moment anymore - even though a bit shorter could be nice. The higher frequencies are showing much more elevated reverb in relation. I would add some panels behind the couch at the early reflection points to try to get below 0.4s. This should benefit your sound state quite a bit.

For the measurements, stick to the 90 degree orientation to the ceiling, as was indicated before, or your estimates will be quite off. Curious to see your next steps.

It was mentioned before but be careful with wrapping the rock/stonewool. Cloth might let some fibers escape and it can become very irritating to your respiratory system over time. I would always use plastic around them and have porous panels for the higher frequencies.
 

D!sco

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I may have missed this earlier, do you have a sub? Still important for dealing with room modes and equalizing bass effectively. Everything looks as good as it could be by now, honestly.
 
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Marcin

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Hi again :)

So I made a few panels out of glass wool (circa 7000 Pa.s/m2). 4 panels 20 cm thick and 2 panels 10 cm thick.

20 cm panels went to the left corners - almost floor to ceiling (2,4 m) with more less 10 cm air gap. For the other two panels I did some swapping and measuring. "Bass trap" panels were in the corners the whole time.

I'm attaching all my measurements.
-wool-corners: only "bass traps"
-wool-corners-front: "bass traps" + 10 cm panels behind the speakers
-wool-corners-side: "bass traps" + 10 cm panels on side walls at first reflection
-wool-corners-2rear: "bass traps" + 10 cm panels on rear wall
-wool-corners-1rear: "bass traps" + one 10 cm panel on rear wall
-wool-corners-LPfront: only "bass traps", listening position a bit to the front
-wool-corners-LPback: only "bass traps", listening position a bit to the back

I think the listening position little bit more to the front turned out to be better.
Based on those measurements do you think I should go more into absorbers on the walls or diffusers?
 

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ernestcarl

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I really don't think any of your measurements indicate an obvious need for more diffusion right now. Just don't cover all walls with absorption, say, not more than 15-20% and you should be fine.

But do understand that I am heavily biased towards a "deader" sounding dedicated MCH listening room -- wherein, if desired, I can artificially add more or less reverb and surround DSP "effects" to taste -- so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

TOPT

1643224756722.png


I think you can guess that the other four lower traces (surround & front channels) are mine. In my main open plan living room, I have it around the more "normal" average of 0.3s
 

EEE272

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I really don't think any of your measurements indicate an obvious need for more diffusion right now. Just don't cover all walls with absorption, say, not more than 15-20% and you should be fine.

But do understand that I am heavily biased towards a "deader" sounding dedicated MCH listening room -- wherein, if desired, I can artificially add more or less reverb and surround DSP "effects" to taste -- so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

TOPT
View attachment 182076

I think you can guess that the other four lower traces (surround & front channels) are mine. In my main open plan living room, I have it around the more "normal" average of 0.3s
Nice! That is even less reverb than in my room. :)
I am just at .2, with the same argument you gave. I really like how precise the sound becomes and how well spatial effects come across.
 
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Marcin

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I really don't think any of your measurements indicate an obvious need for more diffusion right now. Just don't cover all walls with absorption, say, not more than 15-20% and you should be fine.
Still clarity graph of my measurements doesn't look satisfactory, especially in the lower end. EDT in RT60 little bit off as well. There's actually quite a lot of figures in orange in Data Panel and I don't know what that means. REW Help says: Unreliable figures are italicised and shown orange.
Do you think it is possible to significantly improve with installing more absorbers?

In general when listening to music now I can hear an improvement. Listening is less fatiguing to my ears than before. The thing that bothers me is that it is a little muddier in right ear, like it is stuffed with cotton wool if you know what I mean. What can be done to fix this?
 

hemiutut

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Still clarity graph of my measurements doesn't look satisfactory, especially in the lower end. EDT in RT60 little bit off as well. There's actually quite a lot of figures in orange in Data Panel and I don't know what that means. REW Help says: Unreliable figures are italicised and shown orange.
Do you think it is possible to significantly improve with installing more absorbers?

In general when listening to music now I can hear an improvement. Listening is less fatiguing to my ears than before. The thing that bothers me is that it is a little muddier in right ear, like it is stuffed with cotton wool if you know what I mean. What can be done to fix this?
To your question if by putting more absorption there will be an improvement.
The answer is yes and not little.
What happens is that I advise you to make those 10 cm panels at least 20 cm thick, those of 10 cm what they are doing is unbalancing more the TR in medium-high frequencies vs. bass frequencies.
The more you can attack the bass frequencies the better, don't worry, it won't happen if you put a lot of absorption, but you have to put the panels where they are most effective, which are the points of maximum speed.
Think that in the right front there is a sofa on the right wall and a window on the left wall.
It is normal to notice what you are commenting, there is more absorption on the right wall vs left wall.
index.php

If you can put the .mdat file with each front (L and R) separately.

Written with translator

Greetings
 
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Marcin

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@hemiutut Do you mean put 20 cm absorber on the front wall (behind the speakers) and take a measurement?
 

hemiutut

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@hemiutut Do you mean put 20 cm absorber on the front wall (behind the speakers) and take a measurement?
Yes, put 1 panel of 20 cm in each corner of the front wall + 1 of 10 cm.
of the front wall + 1 of 10 cm, placed from floor to ceiling diagonally to the corner (leaving air chamber).

And the other 2 panels of 20 cm that you have, one on each side wall.
for the first reflection.
That is enough to start with.

I understand perfectly that you have to reconcile the aesthetics of your living room plus family life but you have to mentalize that less is enough.
than 20 cms I do not advise you to put any panel and more using
a 7.000 Pa.s/m2 material.
5.000 Pa.s/m2 is better from 20 cm thick panels but if there is no way to find it, 7.000 Pa.s/m2 is better.
than 10.000 Pa.s/m2
I am talking about treating the base as they say in USA (low frequencies).

Make only 4 measures, each front L and R separately without treatment vs acoustic treatment.

Regards
 

ernestcarl

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There's actually quite a lot of figures in orange in Data Panel and I don't know what that means. REW Help says: Unreliable figures are italicised and shown orange.

If you mean the figures in the data panel, I myself don't bother with it. It isn't important.

Do you think it is possible to significantly improve with installing more absorbers?

Yes. Absolutely. The thicker you make the absorber panels (with some air gap), the better.

The thing that bothers me is that it is a little muddier in right ear, like it is stuffed with cotton wool if you know what I mean. What can be done to fix this?

It's very hard to say why exactly just with the measurements you provided. But the clarity (C50) is a bit lower in your right speaker below 2kHz. Also, as mentioned before, there is quite a bit of asymmetry going on in this room.
 
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Marcin

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I decided I will order one triangular bass trap to the right-front corner. Can't do more because of the shelves.
Apart from that 6 hybrid absorbers 120x60x10 cm. 4 on the back wall, 1 on the right wall and 1 on the windowsill on the left. Something like this:
1643811616667.jpeg

There are other versions of the front "diffuser" but I don't really know if they make audible difference. I guess I will just pick the one I like most in terms of looks.

1643811636121.png


Do you think it makes sense to leave 5 cm air gap from the wall? The manufacturer says that, because of the 4 mm board that is mounted at the back, it will not really absorb more with the air gap.
 

ernestcarl

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I decided I will order one triangular bass trap to the right-front corner. Can't do more because of the shelves.
Apart from that 6 hybrid absorbers 120x60x10 cm. 4 on the back wall, 1 on the right wall and 1 on the windowsill on the left. Something like this:
View attachment 183702
There are other versions of the front "diffuser" but I don't really know if they make audible difference. I guess I will just pick the one I like most in terms of looks.

View attachment 183703

Do you think it makes sense to leave 5 cm air gap from the wall? The manufacturer says that, because of the 4 mm board that is mounted at the back, it will not really absorb more with the air gap.

Here's what Jesco from Acoustics Insider has to say on the matter:


Hopefully that helps.
 
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Marcin

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Here's what Jesco from Acoustics Insider has to say on the matter:


Hopefully that helps.
He's not really clear about the air gap... Does he mean hang the panel on longer screws, so that there is eg. 5 cm air gap from the wall, or have a panel with deeper frame and air gap INSIDE the panel?

Sorry, it might be a stupid question but it's actually what the manufacturer of the panel told me. Hanging it on longer screws will have marginal effect because there is a 4mm board at the back and the space behind the panel will be open so the air gap will not really make a difference. It will only make sense to have a frame 15 cm deep and air gap in the panel. It's what he said...
 

ernestcarl

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He's not really clear about the air gap... Does he mean hang the panel on longer screws, so that there is eg. 5 cm air gap from the wall, or have a panel with deeper frame and air gap INSIDE the panel?

Sorry, it might be a stupid question but it's actually what the manufacturer of the panel told me. Hanging it on longer screws will have marginal effect because there is a 4mm board at the back and the space behind the panel will be open so the air gap will not really make a difference. It will only make sense to have a frame 15 cm deep and air gap in the panel. It's what he said...

No idea what panels those are you posted, but they look like GIK. And they pretty much give similar advice here:


There are indeed panels that are "sealed" with an air-gap inside -- nevertheless, the air-gap provided in many of these thinner ones are probably just barely "enough" to be effective in the upper bass -- like the one you showed. It really depends on your use case... and aesthetic judgment. The best way to find out for yourself is to test it flat against the wall versus with increasing amounts of air-gap.
 
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Marcin

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No idea what panels those are you posted, but they look like GIK.
It's not GIK but it is probably similar. This is how they look at the back
image.png


Guess you're right, I will have to measure before I hang them on the wall.
 

EEE272

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It's not GIK but it is probably similar. This is how they look at the backView attachment 183752

Guess you're right, I will have to measure before I hang them on the wall.
Looking at this photo, it might even be possible to remove the back panel and test without it as well.
In any case, they should already make quite a difference in the room.

When you place them, maybe get some help from someone to check that from your listening position, they are in the first reflection points. You can do so by having someone hold a mirror against the wall. Where you see your speaker in it, is where the first reflections are.
 
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Marcin

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Hi again :)

Coming back with measurements after I installed all the acoustic treatment I wrote about earlier.

SPL for both speakers
SPL L+R.jpg


SPL for L+R separately (L=orange)
SPL.jpg


Clarity
Clarity.jpg


RT60
RT60.jpg


Overall I can hear a definitive improvement. The sound is calmer and I feel less fatigue when listening for a longer time.

This is the maximum I could get from acoustic treatment I guess. Now only DRC can make more improvement in my room.
 

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ernestcarl

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I think you might be already fine without additional EQ here.
 

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Marcin

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@ernestcarl do you think reverb time for the frequencies below 150 Hz can be improved with DRC?

I was thinking about trying out Lyngdorf or Arcam amps with correction.
 

ernestcarl

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@ernestcarl do you think reverb time for the frequencies below 150 Hz can be improved with DRC?

I was thinking about trying out Lyngdorf or Arcam amps with correction.

No hurt in trying...

It's not possible to reduce RT with DRC. Bass energy ringing/prolonged decay reduction requires significant damping. You're already quite better off above 150Hz than before... Boosting EQ below the transition zone is not something I would recommend; only subtractive, if you feel that it is even necessary.
 
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