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Room help: measuring and treating a vaulted ceiling room

sarumbear

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Can you please read the whole thing instead of quoting a specific part out of context to trigger a response out of me?

This statement does not invalidate the data provided.
There’s nothing to read. It’s simply data collated from various datasets into a single page. Useful but that’s all. Anyone can get that data but not anyone will know how to use it.

If you can’t understand what I’m saying you don’t know enough to use that data. The objective here is to help the OP to design an absorber suitable for domestic listening rooms.
 

sarumbear

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Actually no, it's been in use since TV was invented.
If you are going to argue that a home theatre (not just a TV) should be bright then you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
 

tuga

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If you are going to argue that a home theatre (not just a TV) should be bright then you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

If the room is indeed (just) a home theatre and it's too bright then it would in my view make more sense to paint the walls and ceiling grey or some dark pastel colour, and the window behind the TV needs to be closable with shutters or some blackout curtains.
 

sarumbear

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If the room is indeed (just) a home theatre and it's too bright then it would in my view make more sense to paint the walls and ceiling grey or some dark pastel colour, and the window behind the TV needs to be closable with shutters or some blackout curtains.
There’s nothing on that room that says it is used for anything but a home theatre. No desk, nor table exists and all seats face the TV. That was visible to everyone from the first post. Besides, the OP was asking for guidance on sound treatment, not on decoration.

I may come across as argumentative but we will serve the members better if we stay on topic and suggest on things we have experience and/or know-how. Acoustics is a very complicated discipline where lots of empirical solutions exist. It is not demeaning if an audio person doesn't know acoustics.
 
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GimeDsp

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I am tall and it looks flat from the front, but you’re right it's a bit high. Now it's definitely low, will test for differences later.
In my research i have found rear floor/ceiling reflections to be extremely important for locking it horizontal soundstage.
If there is a stairwell behind you thats prime situation to mess up soundstage.
You may need to add absorption on the wall behind you in the stair well or add "kickers" to kick back some of the sound to get proper reflections to build soundstage.

However. Dealing with strange first reflections points on left and right should be done first.
 
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sarumbear

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In my research i have found rear floor/ceiling reflections to be extremely important for locking it horizontal soundstage.
If there is a stairwell behind you thats prime situation to mess up soundstage.
You may need to add absorption on the wall behind you in the stair well or add "kickers" to kick back some of the sound to get proper reflections to build soundstage.

However. Dealing with strange first reflections points on left and right should be down first
How will the reflections from the left wall form do you think?
 

GimeDsp

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That angled wall/ceiling is messing everything up.
It needs absorbed but you can start by piling blankets and pillows, etc on the floor by in that wall/corner and see how it helps.
 

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GimeDsp

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How will the reflections from the left wall form do you think?
Not, with a live wall, floor, and ceiling that wall is going to skew all early and later reflections. I doubt anything can be fixed until that angled wall. ceiling is treated.

ASC Tube traps, if you like the looks, could also be good for your place.
They have absorption on one side, and a semi reflective side.

Likewise you can build a custom bass trap/insert that fits into that area and also build in a shelf so you don't loose storage.
 
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sarumbear

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Not, with a live wall, floor, and ceiling that wall is going to skew all early and later reflections. I doubt anything can be fixed until that angled wall. ceiling is treated.
The angle in that wall is helping! It’s the best attribute of the room that is visible in the photograph. imagine the wall is a mirror and the loudspeakers a light bulb. Can you see the bulbs?
 

GimeDsp

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The angle in that wall is helping! It’s the best attribute of the room that is visible in the photograph. imagine the wall is a mirror and the loudspeakers a light bulb. Can you see the bulbs?
If the ceiling/walls were same on either side, I didn't see if they are, and if there was a normal wall floor/behind the LP, then I would agree it could help a lot. But as it is now I don't think it's helping.

My company has done lot's of testing on things like carpets on floors, ceiling clouds, and room treatment.
As it turns out, losing the reflection zone behind LP or absorbing it has a big impact on sound localization, losing the floor bounce from the stair area and having any side wall asymmetry would be the worst situation.

Thankfully he can test the angle issue by putting blankets and pillows and such on the ground. If he pills it high enough it should help down to 3k and a little below.
 

sarumbear

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If the ceiling/walls were same on either side, I didn't see if they are, and if there was a normal wall floor/behind the LP, then I would agree it could help a lot. But as it is now I don't think it's helping.

My company has done lot's of testing on things like carpets on floors, ceiling clouds, and room treatment.
As it turns out, losing the reflection zone behind LP or absorbing it has a big impact on sound localization, losing the floor bounce from the stair area and having any side wall asymmetry would be the worst situation.

Thankfully he can test the angle issue by putting blankets and pillows and such on the ground. If he pills it high enough it should help down to 3k and a little below.
Any asymmetry will have an effect but we don’t know what is on the right of the LP. We shouldn’t assume anything.

OP has an acoustically awkward space. The rear area is considerably higher and wider than the listening area. There’s not much you can do to reduce the RT other than major treatment of that area at a great cost. You can though diffuse the direct reflection from the rear wall. This will reduce the bad sounding effects of the space.

I said earlier but I will repeat again: diffusion is almost always more effective and safer to use than absorption in acoustically taming a domestic listening room or a recording studio. High RT is not good but if you can’t reduce it at a wide frequency range it’s better to try to make it sound nice by diffusion. Bad diffuser simply fails with no effect to the acoustics of the room but wrong use of absorbers mess with the acoustics of the room and makes it sound bad.
 
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ripmixburn

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It is worth the added cost to get a largest Persian carpet that will fit? I could get an 8×10' which would go all the way under the sofa to the railing right up to touching the speakers. Or I could save money and get a 4×10' runner. I checked with my local carpet dealer and the kind to look for is a gabbeh which is a sleeping carpet of nomadic peoples.
 

GimeDsp

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It is worth the added cost to get a largest Persian carpet that will fit? I could get an 8×10' which would go all the way under the sofa to the railing right up to touching the speakers. Or I could save money and get a 4×10' runner. I checked with my local carpet dealer and the kind to look for is a gabbeh which is a sleeping carpet of nomadic peoples.

IMO you need to stop the sound from reflecting in the angled side wall/roof.
You need reflections that you are used to hearing for balanced sound.

With an angled roof/walls and a stair well behind you the only natural/normal reflection point is the floor. Ground reflections are the only constant we here 24/7, outside on dirt, concrete, or inside, we always here that reflection point.
 

pozz

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If you can’t understand what I’m saying you don’t know enough to use that data. The objective here is to help the OP to design an absorber suitable for domestic listening rooms.
The objective is to make the OP satisfied with the sound. We haven't heard that setup ourselves and have no data apart from a picture with strong anamorphic distortion, which makes it hard to judge dimensions. OP also hasn't specified the speakers or gear he uses or the signal chain.

And what @abdo123 posted was useful since it pushed the thread towards data and the ensuing discussion probably clarified a few things as well.
________________

@ripmixburn Please try measuring or, if you don't have the gear for that, try a series of tests with loudspeakers and your listening position.

Is there any position where music/dialogue sounds good? If so, is it true for all speakers independently? What about for phantom center? What about for image consistency and left/right movements? If you find one spot where it's good, figure out the circumstances which make it good. If good only when your face is right in front of the speaker, how far back and in which direction can you go until you start experiencing your issues?

Does every spot on the couch sound equally as bad? What if you're lying down with your head on one of the end cushions? What about when slouching so that your head is resting against a back cushion? Does it sound bad when you stand?

At least eliminate the possibility that you can't fix things by moving your speakers around, changing where they point, or with EQ. Or that your gear settings aren't inadvertently messing things up. Then cue the room treatment.
 

sarumbear

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OP also hasn't specified the speakers or gear he uses or the signal chain.
What has speaker got to to with the acoustic treatment of the room? Jeez!
At least eliminate the possibility that you can't fix things by moving your speakers around, changing where they point, or with EQ. Or that your gear settings aren't inadvertently messing things up. Then cue the room treatment.
It is home theatre set-up! There is only one place to put the speakers. How can you "move around" them? Jeez, again!
 

alex-z

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What has speaker got to to with the acoustic treatment of the room? Jeez!

It is home theatre set-up! There is only one place to put the speakers. How can you "move around" them? Jeez, again!

Narrow vs wide dispersion can dramatically change how much side wall absorption is "needed".

There is actually some flexibility in speaker placement for home theatre. 8 degree window for the front channels, 10 for the surrounds. Not to mention the distance from the front wall can be adjusted to shift the SBIR point. It is always worth experimenting with such adjustments, costs nothing but time.

 

sarumbear

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Narrow vs wide dispersion can dramatically change how much side wall absorption is "needed".
Have you noticed the sidewall's shape in the picture?
 

pozz

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What has speaker got to to with the acoustic treatment of the room? Jeez!
The main issue the OP reported is bad sound, and in a later post confirmed unclear dialogue. There's a speaker/room interaction we have to understand.
It is home theatre set-up! There is only one place to put the speakers. How can you "move around" them? Jeez, again!
What are the characteristics of the speakers? What's their radiation pattern? Can you expect to sit off axis vertically/horizontally and get decently even direct sound? Are the speakers angled correctly? Can they be shifted, raised, tilted to improve intelligibility or not?

If the speakers are ok (probably are), and the placement is ok (could probably be improved), and the signal chain is ok (total unknown), then, yes, the room is the next step (likely a few precise decisions will improve things). But only after understanding the whole situation a little better.
 

pozz

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It is worth the added cost to get a largest Persian carpet that will fit? I could get an 8×10' which would go all the way under the sofa to the railing right up to touching the speakers. Or I could save money and get a 4×10' runner. I checked with my local carpet dealer and the kind to look for is a gabbeh which is a sleeping carpet of nomadic peoples.
I have a nice gabbeh. I've had it in three places already. Follows me around.

Even outside of sound, I'd say get a good carpet rather than a runner. The latter are usually not as well made and cut from a large strip. In terms of sound—it wouldn't hurt. I think you can get any kind, really, as long as you like it and it's comfortable.
 
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